Are the Emerald Witch and the White Witch the same person.

No. No way. Jadis could be the LotGK, but Jadis and the Phoenix . . . very different! Doesn't the phoenix almost make Digory ashamed of thinking of taking some of the fruit? (I may be way off--my memory's awfully foggy.) Plus, what reason on earth could there be??? And yes, wasn't it in the Last Battle, in Aslan's country?
 
theophany

waterhogboy said:
Hmmmm.... I know this is verging on facile conjecture but I've always wondered about that bird - why is it there, if it's not Jadis?
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I always thought of the bird as being a messenger of Aslan, if not Aslan himself in another form --i.e., a theophany-- to help Digory keep himself from making the wrong choice and picking a second apple. There are other appearances of Aslan in other forms throughout the Chronicles:
*changing from a toy in the Silver Chair
*the Lamb in Aslan's country
*the cat that comforted and protected Shasta among the Tombs in a Horse in His Boy
 
Now that does sound plausible. I'm not agreeing, mind you, but it certainly works a lot better than the Jadis thing. Still, if the bird is in Aslan's country, that kind of punches a hole in the whole thing. Well. Off to class--
 
It's the description of the bird in MN -- that's pretty much a traditional description of the Phoenix. And then in LB, it specifically mentions the Phoenix being in the orchard.
 
I think its wrong to Say that Jadis and the Emerald Witch though are the devil in a parallell world. I got the impression that Jadis learned the deplorable word FROM SATAN HIMSELF!!! She said "I paid a terrible price to learn it." Was that price her soul???? Thats the impression I always got.
 
That makes a lot of sense. I've always wondered just what that price was, but I suppose Lewis wasn't going to tell us, because that wasn't really the point.
 
I think it's a real stretch to speculate that Jadis learned the Deplorable Word from Satan. There's absolutely no justification for that presumption. "A terrible price" could mean any number of things besides that.

Besides, Satan is a being of this universe. How could he be in Charn's universe?
 
I don't know that Jadis would be the sort to admit the loss of her soul as a terrible price, either. But it's an interesting theory, to be sure.

PotW--I dunno. God spans Lewis's universe, so possibly angels and Satan and whatnot do too? Or there's always the possibility that Jadis tore through the worlds herself, in search of the Deplorable Word.
 
I don't think Jadis went through other worlds looking for the deplorable word, because i think that though she did know of other worlds, she didn't know how to reach them, because then i think she would have tried to conquer them. Think of how appealing an empire that stretches from world to world would be to her. actually, now that i think of it, i wonder why she ever tried to conquer archenland or caloremen or any other place like that...
 
"there's always the possibility that Jadis tore through the worlds herself, in search of the Deplorable Word."

Animus, Each world has its own Deplorable Word. Jadis could only find her world's DW by seeking it out on her planet. She would not have been able to find out what it was anywhere else.

Catherine, Jadis dd try to conquer the world she visited. She wanted to conquer Earth, only to be stopped by Digory and Polly. She eventually did conquer Narnia, taking over the couintry of Narnia and the known islands while allying with the northern country of Ettinsmoor as she more than likely lived up there for hundreds of years gaining knowledge of the magic contained within Narnia.

MrBob
 
MrBob said:
"there's always the possibility that Jadis tore through the worlds herself, in search of the Deplorable Word."

Animus, Each world has its own Deplorable Word. Jadis could only find her world's DW by seeking it out on her planet. She would not have been able to find out what it was anywhere else.

Catherine, Jadis dd try to conquer the world she visited. She wanted to conquer Earth, only to be stopped by Digory and Polly. She eventually did conquer Narnia, taking over the couintry of Narnia and the known islands while allying with the northern country of Ettinsmoor as she more than likely lived up there for hundreds of years gaining knowledge of the magic contained within Narnia.

MrBob
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She wouldn't have been able to find it, perhaps (do you have a quote on that?), but it might not have stopped her from looking. But I think it's more probable that Jadis knew about other worlds--she seems to realize Polly and Digory are from one--without being able to travel to them; otherwise, why bother putting herself into a waxworks coma for so long?

Catherine, I think that's an interesting question--you're right that she never seems to bother going after Archenland or Calormen, even though Archenland's a pretty easy target. (Though I think you're wrong in assuming she would conquer every world ever--if she was in search of something to conquer her sister, she likely wouldn't be sidetracked.) I mean, she doesn't really conquer the world of Narnia, does she? Just Narnia (the country) and possibly the islands, although it's up in the air how much power she had over them and whether or not they came with Narnia to begin with.
 
"She wouldn't have been able to find it, perhaps (do you have a quote on that?)"

Quote on which part?

MrBob
 
MrBob said:
"She wouldn't have been able to find it, perhaps (do you have a quote on that?)"

Quote on which part?

MrBob
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That "each world has its own Deplorable Word. Jadis could only find her world's DW by seeking it out on her planet. She would not have been able to find out what it was anywhere else". The quotes I'm able to find mention that the Deplorable Word was "the secret of secrets....It had long been known...that there was a word which, if spoken with the proper ceremonies, would destroy all living things except the one who spoke it" but that the earlier kids "bound themselves and all who should come after them with great oaths never even to seek after the knowledge of that word. But [Jadis] learned it in a secret place and paid a terrible price to learn it" (MN Chapter 5). I can't find anything that speaks to its being found on Charn or even only available there.

I think it's likely that she stayed in Charn to learn it--I find it hard to believe that a witch who could leave her world in search of magic would hang out after the apocalypse, and she considers Andrew a "great Magician" for getting the children there--but she does know about other worlds, and doesn't seem terribly surprised that someone has moved between them. (Mind you, and a bit off-topic: Charn's got to have some sort of tradition of chivalry or something, because her initial beliefs about Andrew seeing her face in a magic pool and shaking Earth to its core with a spell, all for the love of her beauty, sound awfully romantic quest-ish.)
 
Well, keep in mind that in Nephew, Jadis found that magic didn't necessarily translate across worlds. Her "blasting" power (and who knows what else) didn't work in London, for example, and one can infer from Aslan's statements that she had to "start over" in the Narnian universe as well. Therefore it's kind of unlikely that Lewis envisioned her going into different worlds to find the Deplorable Word, because there'd be no guarantee it would work back in Charn. My clear impression is that the Deplorable Word belonged to Charn.
 
By the same token, the rings were developed on Earth (from dust from the Wood), and they work in Narnia and Charn. Susan's horn clearly works on people outside of Narnia (although we have no way of knowing whether it would work if blow somewhere else).

I don't dispute that it's most likely Jadis found the Deplorable Word in her own world--but I do object to assertions that aren't canon. :)
 
Well, don't forget Lewis' explanation that the Rings only worked with respect to the Wood. They could draw people there, or they could push people away. Of course, the Wood being what it was, that was a nice capability, but that's very limited magic.

Also, the Horn was Aslan's magic. Remember that it was unpredictable - if you used it, help would come, but you weren't guaranteed what type.

Thus comparing either of those to the Deplorable Word is comparing apples to oranges. The truth is, there's nothing in the text that implies that Jadis had to go anywhere but Charn to learn the DW. Trying to infer that paying "a terrible price" meant going off to other worlds is really stretching that statement far beyond anything the plain text states.

Clearly Jadis is familiar with the idea of multiple worlds and travel between them, since she just presumes that Digory and Polly had come from another world (and were going to take her back). But there's strong circumstantial evidence that Jadis couldn't get to any other worlds from Charn: that is, her response to the aftermath of the use of the Deplorable Word. She'd just wiped out every other living being in her world. If there was a time to skip out, that would have been it. But what did she do? Put herself in suspended animation in the Chamber of Images. I'd suggest that she wouldn't have done that if there had been any other option. There was no guarantee that anyone would ever show up, yet she did it. Q.E.D. she was stuck there.
 
Not at all. Highly probable (and in this case I very much agree with you that Jadis most likely spent her entire life on Charn until Polly and Digory showed up) doesn't mean it's canon. Canon means the narrator* saying And that was the first time Jadis had ever left Charn or Jadis learned the Deplorable Word in Charn's capital, in an old temple or something. To be a stickler, even Jadis explaining that she found the word on Charn wouldn't be enough, because Aslan is the only character within the series we can be sure isn't lying**.

The text doesn't indicate it in this case, and the only evidence I can even think of is a lack of negative evidence, but that doesn't mean there isn't enough for a theory. Whether or not it's convincing is another story--I don't think I could be convinced of anything more than the possibility--but that's not the point. There is magic that can reach between worlds, and Jadis knows of its existence; there are lots of games to play with that.

I very much agree that it's surprising Jadis stayed in Charn post-apocalypse if she knew how to get out, but I'm sure someone could think of something. I'm not arguing about what the best or easiest interpretation is, but about the fact that this is an interpretation. It's speculation. It's not canon. [You will notice I am kind of crazy conservative about canon. That is because I spent too long in the Harry Potter fandom.] If you're arguing for the easiest interpretation than we're talking at cross-purposes--I just jumped in because of a definitive statement that wasn't supported by canon (unless you have a quote, MrBob?).

*made a bit difficult in the case of the Narnia books because the books are written as if the narrator heard the stories from the kids later, and so isn't a truly omniscient narrator exactly

**although some people would disagree
 
"but she does know about other worlds, and doesn't seem terribly surprised that someone has moved between them."

Animus, read that chapter again. She was surprised that the two children awoke her. She demanded to know ho they came to her house and it was Polly who told her that they came from another world. Jadis was surprised to hear that they had come from another world. So that acknowledged, Jadis did not know of other worlds until Polly told her.

Think about it, and her plans hinged on someone awakening her with the bell on a world where no life existed. KInd of a bit of a plot hole for someone who was not aware of alternate worlds. :confused:

"That "each world has its own Deplorable Word. Jadis could only find her world's DW by seeking it out on her planet. She would not have been able to find out what it was anywhere else"."

OK, so the specific term "Deplorable Word" is not the secret on each world, but each world has a destrutive secret nonetheless. In the final chapter, Aslan talks to Digory and Polly in the Wood and says, "It is not certain that some wicked one of your race will not find a secret as evil as the Deplorable Word and use it to destroy all living things." This was written during the Cold War and the Korean War where nuclear war was seen as a possibility.

Each world does have its Deplorable Word in a sense. It merely doesn't have to be a specific magic spell but could be technological knowledge that can kill everything. Narnia had a kind of Word as well. Jadis learned it from the Deep Magic.

MrBob
 
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