Caspian/ Ramandu's daughter...

"I'm still not sure why there should be any mention of Susan at all"

Animus, Of course Caspian would want to know how Susan and Peter are doing. They did help him become king.

As for Sven's scene, there is no reason for Lucy to act jealous just because Caspian calls her their "lovely sister" (yes, I know that it would foreshadow the Magican's Book, but it just seems out of place). And I always imagined that Susan changed either on her trip to Ameriaca or slightly thereafter. She should still be their partially royal sister at the beginning of VotDT.

MrBob
 
^Agreed^

Susan, at the beginning of Dawn Treader, should be a jolly sight too worldly and flirtatious but otherwise still the Narnian Queen. I think she comes back from America and acts as though she has grown out Narnia. (Darn us Americans, we spoiled her highness.) I picture it kind of like what happens to Meg March after going to the Moffats in Little Women, Susan goes and gets petted as the beautiful and charming young English girl who came with the English Lecturer and she likes it too much. After she comes back her siblings find her to be the Susan of LB.
 
~Lava~ said:
As to your comments about the Susapian kiss, my whole point is that they ought to show that neither hold each other as persons of interest in the love department. They almost have to because it would make Caspian look fickle if he suddenly went from loving Susan to loving Ramandu's Daughter in the audience's mind.
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Eek. But she's--not--they just kissed! Any audience member who thinks the Capsian/Susan romance means love needs a reality check; does the movie need to pander to that?. We could have a mention, I suppose ("How is the High King?" "Fine."), but I'm not sure it's necessary. (They aren't mentioned in the book, are they? I don't remember them, or remember feeling a lack.) I do think that if we're worried about the audience freaking out, then by all means--shove it in. But I don't think it's necessary; it's a kiss, not a declaration of love or an engagement. (The other problem, of course, is that Caspian, Lucy, and Edmund should all--as monarchs and adults/people who were adults at one point--be aware of this.)

Let me rephrase: Is there any canon evidence that Susan started forgetting/not believing in Narnia between PC and VotDT? Other than her singsong remembrance in PC, or her hesitance to see Aslan? I've always imagined it as happening around VotDT, but...is there any canonical evidence for it?
 
There is the whole fact that her parents thought that Susan would get more out of the trip than any of her siblings. "Grown-ups thought her the pretty one of the family and she was no good at school work (though otherwise very old for her age) and Mother said she 'would get far more out of a trip to America than the youngsters.'"(Voyage of the Dawn Treader, Chapter 1: The Picture in the Bedroom)
 
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~Lava~ said:
There is the whole fact that her parents thought that Susan would get more out of the trip than any of her siblings. "Grown-ups thought her the pretty one of the family and she was no good at school work (though otherwise very old for her age) and Mother said she 'would get far more out of a trip to America than the youngsters.'"(Voyage of the Dawn Treader, Chapter 1: The Picture in the Bedroom)
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Is that evidence for much? She's got to be, what, a teenager then? Contrasted with Ed and Lu who would be...oh, nine-ish and ten-ish. Her mother, looking at a very pretty girl without much luck in school, but oh, *so* grown-up for her age, might well consider she would get more out of a trip abroad than her siblings, regardless of Narnia; she mightn't be able to see that her younger children are mature too. (I've always wondered if she was no good at schoolwork because she wasn't smart, because she didn't care, or because it bored her.)
 
~Lava~ said:
It is not because she isn't smart.
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Do we know that? (Er, book-smart, that is--she's certainly pragmatic and full of common sense.) I mean, in the books--we never see her doing maths or writing essays or anything else that would translate to something gradable and testable back in England.
 
Back in 5th Grade people would have said that I was not smart because I had awful grades; indeed I got teased unmercifully because I was "dumb enough" to fail (as in huge "F" on my report card) Religion and Reading in 4th Grade. It was not because I was not smart, I certainly could do the work if I tried but I didn't because it was to much effort and I had undiagnosed learning disabilities. Some of the smartest people I know are people who would have been called idiots in school and looking at my record in Highschool for face-value (especially since I had to take the GED), I would still be written off as not book-smart but if you look at my college GPA (3.75 cummulative) you would know that I am not to be underestimated.

No, Susan was smart enough. But I digress.

I still think they ought to show that Caspian has no feelings for Susan still.
 
~Lava~ said:
Back in 5th Grade people would have said that I was not smart because I had awful grades; indeed I got teased unmercifully because I was "dumb enough" to fail (as in huge "F" on my report card) Religion and Reading in 4th Grade. It was not because I was not smart, I certainly could do the work if I tried but I didn't because it was to much effort and I had undiagnosed learning disabilities. Some of the smartest people I know are people who would have been called idiots in school and looking at my record in Highschool for face-value (especially since I had to take the GED), I would still be written off as not book-smart but if you look at my college GPA (3.75 cummulative) you would know that I am not to be underestimated.

No, Susan was smart enough. But I digress.
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I think you're misunderstanding me. There are lots of reasons people can be "no good at school work"--learning disabilities, a lack of effort, disinterest, bad teachers, bigger priorities, boredom (the reason I did very poorly indeed in one of my math classes), classes being too difficult, not being gifted...lots and lots of reasons. Some of the smartest people you know would probably be called idiots just by looking at their report cards; so would some of the smartest people I know. But they're not Susan. You keep saying Susan was "smart enough"--do you have anything to back that up? Because (and admittedly I have paid more attention to Lucy) I don't remember seeing Susan doing any academic work at all, or anything that translates to book learning or book smarts. She's got wonderful common sense, she's terribly practical, she can presumably rule a country--but that's not really the same thing.

But, uh, we are digressing. Back to Caspian and Susan! I'm not against having them put a line in--I just don't think it's necessary. And part of me would love it if a kids/teen movie let a farewell kiss be, well, a farewell kiss, not a declaration of love that needs to be explained away before a different romance can blossom five years later.
 
Animus Wyrmis said:
I'm not against having them put a line in--I just don't think it's necessary. And part of me would love it if a kids/teen movie let a farewell kiss be, well, a farewell kiss, not a declaration of love that needs to be explained away before a different romance can blossom five years later.
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True. That is the thing that upsets me about some teen oriented fare, say the TV shwo Smallville. eight seasons and Clark Kent is still pinning over Lana, so much so that I could NEVER see him ending up with Lois Lane ( who he should be with.) If Caspian has been doing nothing over the past few years in Narnia but sitting on his throne and pinning for Susan and Susan has been doing nothing but pinning for him, it woudl be very disapointing.
 
It would be nice, yes, but they went too far in PC for any of the tweens and half of the teens to think that that was just a farewell kiss.
 
"Is there any canon evidence that Susan started forgetting/not believing in Narnia between PC and VotDT? Other than her singsong remembrance in PC, or her hesitance to see Aslan? I've always imagined it as happening around VotDT, but...is there any canonical evidence for it?"

Animus, the books only tell us, as Lava pointed out, that her schoolwork was not up to snuff. However, an intersting note is what is said in that same line that Lava quoted: "(though otherwise very old for her age)". At the end of TLB, we find out that she was being immature, "Grown up indeed ... I wish she would grow up." She can't exist as both old for her age and immature at the same time. That means something happened between VotDT and TLB.

It very easily could have started with her sour grades, combined with a potential issue on her US trip. Afterwards, she began to focus less on schoolwork and more on her social life. And the more popular she got, the less she hung out with her family and the less she thought about Narnia until it was deeply buried in her mind.

MrBob
 
Lava--Do you think so? I think that's such a terribly depressing thing. Especially because most teens (and preteens) should *know* by now that a kiss isn't a declaration of love. I mean...I guess part of me would love to see a movie that doesn't even feel the need to explain it--that just assumes we, as an audience, understand that sometimes, things work out--and sometimes there's no way they will, so you kiss and hug and part on good terms, and then you move on. Especially if you're worlds apart (and I assume they would assume years apart), and one of you is a king.

MrBob said:
Animus, the books only tell us, as Lava pointed out, that her schoolwork was not up to snuff. However, an intersting note is what is said in that same line that Lava quoted: "(though otherwise very old for her age)". At the end of TLB, we find out that she was being immature, "Grown up indeed ... I wish she would grow up." She can't exist as both old for her age and immature at the same time. That means something happened between VotDT and TLB.

It very easily could have started with her sour grades, combined with a potential issue on her US trip. Afterwards, she began to focus less on schoolwork and more on her social life. And the more popular she got, the less she hung out with her family and the less she thought about Narnia until it was deeply buried in her mind.
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I think that's very plausible. (I only asked because so many people wanted a mention in the VotDT film, and I couldn't remember canon stating she had fallen away so early; I'd hate for the movies to come down where Lewis did not, although I also sort of think, if they're going to do TLB, some explanation for why this Susan forgets might be helpful. *undecided*) She always makes me so sad.
 
I just have been dealing with girls from 4th grade on up through the beginning of highschool (and past) to long to think otherwise. Most of the girls I have met through 4-H at tween and early teen-age would have said that the Kiss was a profession of love.

EDIT: Mr Bob, Susan was very grown up for her age in her tastes as a girl reaching adolesence (sp? and I am to lazy to check) but she never grew past the boys and the fashion and so as a 20 year old (or there-abouts) she is immature in her actions. Note the other part of Polly's remark: "'She wasted all her time in school wanting to be the age she is now, and she will waste all the rest of her life trying to stay that age. Her whole idea is to race on to the silliest time of one's life as quick as she can and then stop there as long as she can.'"(Second till last paragraph in "Through the Stable Door," The Last Battle) This very condemning statement supports the theory that Susan was not to dumb to do well in school, she just did not try; it also points to the fact that Susan was chaffing at the edges to be a grown-up again (even if she ceased believing in Narnia) and in her effort to be a grown-up again she very quickly dropped all pretenses of childish things (including the only reason she knew how it felt to be a grown-up). This quote is the most concrete proof that we have that Susan's change happened soon after her last trip to Narnia (if not before).
 
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~Lava~ said:
I just have been dealing with girls from 4th grade on up through the beginning of highschool (and past) to long to think otherwise. Most of the girls I have met through 4-H at tween and early teen-age would have said that the Kiss was a profession of love.
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I agree with this. It is very unfortunate.
 
Having stated the reason why I think that Caspian's love for Susan must be shown to be completely non-existant before he meets Ramandu's daughter, I will now venture an in-depth opinion on how his love of Ramandu's daughter ought to be displayed.

He definitely needs to stop checking out strange women (he is past that now as a mostly mature king). Chivalry (old-style) ought to be his chief means of displaying his interest on the first meeting, he ought to stand up when she enters the courtyard of Aslan's Table (so should Ed and Reep, Eustace is not experienced with Chivalry so he only stands after all the other men do). Madam and and other respectful terms are the only one's he should use. No flirting (that got old really quickly in PC). In everyway, he ought to act towards her like he would some other man's wife; courteous and respectful (He did not do so with Susan).

If they venture to show the return trip of the Dawn Treader, Caspian (having been given leave to kiss her on his return) ought to court her (not date and there is a huge difference). Ending his stay at Ramandu's Island with a marriage, and the first kiss then.
 
Oh the analysis of just a few lines. I wonder what lewis would say at people delving so deeply into his words, trying to come out with a deeper meaning.

"Most of the girls I have met through 4-H at tween and early teen-age would have said that the Kiss was a profession of love."

In the context, however, they would realize that this profession of love was also a parting kiss.

"This quote is the most concrete proof that we have that Susan's change happened soon after her last trip to Narnia (if not before)."

I agree that the start (the increased interest in boys and a social life) may have started soon after LWW or PC, but she seemingly did not start in earnest to forget Narnia until after the trip. It would be ineresting to know when they first met Polly. In her statement, Polly sounds as if she has known Susan for a bit of time. Jill also mentions that Susan is "intersted in nothing nowadays exept nylons, lipstick, and invitiations." That, to me, implies that Jill had met with her at least once before where they did talk about Narnia, but after that initial meeting, Susan just stopped believing.

There would be no other reason why Jill and Polly would be so knowledgeable about Susan. Their information seemed to be firsthand.

MrBob
 
I would imagine that Polly visited Digory a lot (in the end of MN, it says that Polly went to Digory's house nearly every Holiday (at least while they were kids)), it is entirely probable that the Pevensies met her while they were still staying at the Professor's house between LWW and PC. Jill must have met Susan shortly after SC. This means that during the time of Silver Chair, Susan was not totally lost, but I will point out that SC happened during the Fall term of Experiment house after the summer of Susan's trip to America. I think that she starts going south faster after that trip but that she could still believe and be incredibly silly until the belief becomes a hazard to the life she wants to pursue.

EDIT: We need to get back on topic but I cannot think of something about the topic to say at this very moment.
 
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