What are your fears about VODT?

[inkspot]

I also agree with Specter. It is impossible to judge an entire movie based on a five-minute trailer. This is actually called a hasty generalization, a fallacy. When somebody draws a conclusion about something, based on a sample that is too small, that is a generalization.

Agreed

Exactly Son of Adam. The lamb is the only symbol in this film that links Aslan and Jesus. Its the only thing that separates Aslan from other religious founders. It should have been put in.

Specter tells us Aslan's identity is not left in doubt by the script, so I don't think this Lion/Lamb scene is the only thing that will make this clear.

Having Aslan not turning from a lamb to a lion isnt that important. Everyone already knows Aslan represents Jesus as he was killed and brought back to life in LWW.

Agreed

Allow me to again say what I said in another thread in response to the Lamb not appearing. It won't make Aslan seem any less like Jesus to anyone. Both died and both resurrected. No other major religious figure has done the same. Not to mention that anywhere you read about Narnia from the secular world, they sometimes refer to Aslan as the "Jesus-lion." All the same, I wish he appeared as the lamb as well, but I'm going to live without it, because it is still there in the book, where people can always turn for further reading. That, and outside of the Christian world not many people even know that we call Christ the "Lamb of God." I feel that it would not only go over people's heads, but they'd be constantly asking why, and it would distract from the story (sad, but true).

I don't think it would distract from the story, but I agree with this logic. As long as the themes of the book are present in the film, we can do without this particular scene. IMHO

As for the addition of the swords quest mentioned some pages back: I love VDT book and it doesn't bother me that there isn't a more stronger unifying theme than searching for the seven lords, but: I am an old person who wasn't raise on TV and doesn't expect a big, bold tie-it-all-together sort of theme with a bang-up ending like a lot of people/kids today expect. Caspian doesn't actually find all the lords (some are dead, and the sleepers are left in their chairs for all we get to see in the film) and their being found doesn't make a big impact on anyone. it was the reason for the sailing, but it doesn't change (or save) the world.

I think adding the swords/quest in gives them a purpose in their sailing, and will also provide a way to make a dramatic big ending, when they, once again, save Narnia. I have no problem with this as long as they get the themes of the book right.

 

[Son of Adam]

Specter,

First, I will try to find the link you requested. The problem is that the poll was done shortly after LWW came out, and the only reason I still have the figures is that I copied it down in my sermon notes that I gave in church shortly after the film was released.

Secondly, it seems that many here, yourself included, are saying, in effect, that any Narnia film is better than no Narnia film. I may be wrong, and if I am, I apologize now for that error, if it is in error.

I am sure that the de-dragonizing of Eustice is going to be a wonderful scene and I hope people understand the full implications of what is taking place in that scene, but I do not agree with you or the studios that said that the reason they didn't have Aslan change from the Lion and into the Lamb was for staying within the budget. They say that, but I don't think it is the truth. They could have left out the whole tale of the swords of the 7 Narnian Lords (not in the book and not important), or they could have left out anything to do with the White Witch (not in the book and really no relevance to the story). Leaving those unecessary parts out would have left them plenty of money left to do the scene correctly with the Lamb.

You mention your embarrassment over people booing scenes in "Prince Caspian". Maybe it was rude, but it also showed the displeasure of real Narnia fans towards a film that had very little resemblence to the book at all. If someone had seen the film, then went and read the book, do you think they would have thought the two were the same? The movies was reduced to a battle of testosterone wills between Peter and Caspian. Aslan, the all-important subject in the book, in all the books, was relegated to a small almost Cameo appearance in the film. Most of what took place in the film didn't happen in the book!!! No wonder there was some booing. And if they are doing it again to VOTDT, then the same is true of it as well.

Special effects, 3D, does not make a good book into a good film, if the story is unrecognizable.

You mention Jesus resurrection from the dead. Look up reurrection of different religious icons and see what you find. You will see that Hindus claim Krishna was raised from the dead, pagans believe that Osiris was raised from the dead as was Bacchus, Kernunnos, Adonis, and others. Buddhists claim that Buddha was born on Dec.25th, walked on water, fed 500 with only a couple of small cakes, died and was also resurrected from the dead. So they could well claim that Aslan's death and resurrection could point to their iconic religious leaders as well.

Only Jesus died for the sins of mankind and reconciled us back to God. Only Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb led to death and then was raised from the dead. And only in the VOTDT does this picture, the image of Aslan changing from the Lion to the Lamb come to prove just Who Aslan is symbolic of. The Voyage of the Dawn Treader is one of the three most important of the Narnia books, and may be the best spiritual one apart from "The Last Battle". This book depicts Aslan all the way through and culminates with showing the Pevensies just Who He is in our world - Jesus, the Lamb of God. It is THE scene in the book. It is to this part of the book, that was the purpose of the entire book. A voyage of discovery as to Who Aslan is, both in Narnia and in our own world. Don't relegate the most important scene in the book to a non-essential scene in the

 

[Son of Adam]

The problem, inky, is that they didn't get it right. The purpose of the VOTDT was in the ending scene in Aslan's Country with the Pevensies being told they needed to "know" Aslan in their own world - the Lamb of God.

 

[Specter]

Specter,

First, I will try to find the link you requested. The problem is that the poll was done shortly after LWW came out, and the only reason I still have the figures is that I copied it down in my sermon notes that I gave in church shortly after the film was released.

Secondly, it seems that many here, yourself included, are saying, in effect, that any Narnia film is better than no Narnia film. I may be wrong, and if I am, I apologize now for that error, if it is in error.

I do not agree with you or the studios that said that the reason they didn't have Aslan change from the Lion and into the Lamb was for staying within the budget. They say that, but I don't think it is the truth. They could have left out the whole tale of the swords of the 7 Narnian Lords (not in the book and not important), or they could have left out anything to do with the White Witch (not in the book and really no relevance to the story). Leaving those unecessary parts out would have left them plenty of money left to do the scene correctly with the Lamb.

Thank you for trying to find the figures for me. I read through your response thoroughly, and have a few comments.

I don't believe that any Narnia film is better than no Narnia film. But I also don't believe in pre-judging a film, any film, before you have scene the final product. Simply knowing what does or doesn't appear in a product doesn't give license to say that the film is therefore "weaker" for it. In fact, all it does is give license to say "I am displeased by the lack of that scene," as well as why. The White Witch actually has relevance to the story, and that effect was also not expensive enough to cover the cost of a lamb.

Unfortunately the story of the book isn't linear enough to make the additions "unnecessary." You and I both know that in the book, Narnia is at a time of peace, and the Pevensies and their cousin show up in Narnia for... um... a trip on the Narnian seas.

As for the studios saying that they did it for budgetary reasons, the studio always looks at the script and budgets the film out page by page. Sure, losing the swords would have saved some money, but not anywhere close to the actual cost of creating the lamb for the film is pretty high. Not to mention that they were already building both the serpent and the dragon, as well as aging Reepicheep. And then there are the dufflepuds. Of course, you'd think that just modeling one less dufflepud and modeling a lamb instead would be easier, but it's not the case. They create multiple variations of shapes for faces and body types and let the computers do the rest with some human intervention to make sure that there's nothing too out there.

Anyway, when they say cost was the issue, I believe my source completely. They have no reason to tell me otherwise.

 

[Son of Adam]

The White Witch scene has no relevance to the story. It wasn't in the book, and if it wasn't in the book, it has no relevance to the film either. If it has relevance to the movie, it is because they changed the film enough to make it relevant. Stick to the original and you have a better story than embelishing it with something else. There are few films out there that have been taken from great novels that adhere to the books original story, but that doesn't make it right to do so. As soon as an author sells the rights of their book(s) to make a film or television series from it, they have sold their souls, so to speak, to Hollywood mogules who proceed to rip it to shreds. The only author who didn't do that was J.K Rowlings who retained the rights to either allow or disallow what changes filmmakers wanted to do to do with the Harry Potter films. The films certainly abbreviated the books quite a bit, but kept to the basic full story. But, in "Prince Caspian" for example, most Narnia book fans hated what was done to the story in the film. The fear is that they have done the same thing, by wanting to put in more action where it wasn't needed. Had a need to give Tilda Swenton yet another appearance in the film where it wasn't pertinent to the original story and changed the one scene that was the purpose of the original book, VOTDT. Yes, the final scene with the Pevensies was the purpose of C.S. Lewis writing the book. The voyage culminated, as I already said, in the revelation to the Pevensies of just who Aslan was in our world.

Now, I'm not saying that the movie won't be a hit, nor am I saying that many won't go and see it. I will see it at least once, but what I am saying is that the VOTDT was a story about getting the Pevensies to Aslan's Country so that He might reveal Himself as Jesus to them, the Lamb of God. Otherwise there was no reason to the bring the Pevensies back to Narnia. It wasn't a lesson for Caspian and it wasn't just a story about Reepicheep getting to Aslan's Country. It was about 2 events - (1) The redemption of Eustice so that he would become a privotal character in the next books, and (2) What I have already said about revealing Himself as Jesus in our world. The rest is background. Eventually, the story, all the stories, are about Aslan - the central figure in it all, just as everything in our world is all about Jesus and nothing else. Everything was created by Him and for Him as the Word says.

 

[Aravis Kenobi]

I don't mean any disrespect, but it seems to me like you (and many others) have made up your minds that even if you do see it, you won't like it because of what you know, so why bother seeing it all if your opinion will be the same? If it's such an atrocity to the story of the book, why bother paying the money to see it in the first place if you have already made up your mind on it? (And I would have quoted that, but accidentally erased what I was referring to)

 

[inkspot]

Let's don't get into a spitting match about it ... someone might think it's going to be a bad movie and still want to see it ...

I think it's going to be good, and my only fear is with that quest thing added in, it will get to be too much like other fantasy stories or, you know, like Princess Mononoke or a video game where you get this key in this lock and move on to the next level...

 

[Aravis Kenobi]

it just seems kind of hypocritical to say that they don't want any more movies made, yet they'll support a movie (through buying a ticket) that they detest. Doesn't make a lot of sense, IMO. That's all.

 

[Son of Adam]

Aravis: I don't have to worry about paying for tickets to see a movie. My wife and I have lifetime passes to a theater here in Texas and therefore we won't be spending any money except for any snacks we may want. LOL!!!

Inky: To me it isn't the quest thing that bothers me so much, but as a Christian and especially as a pastor, I feel the end of the film is the epitomy of the book. As I have said before, the whole purpose of the voyage to Aslan's Country was two-fold. (1) Redemption of Eustice and (2) the revelation of Who Aslan proclaims to be in our world - Jesus, the Lamb of God. The entire voyage, fraut with dangers and such is a parable of life's struggle to reach God. The 7 Lords fell prey to the 7 deadly sins spoken by God, including gluttony, greed, pride, etc. After overcoming all of the trials, we reach Aslan's Country or Heaven. Reepicheep is welcomed into the kingdom. While the Pevensies are told they cannot return because they must get to know Him in their world - again Jesus. To leave that crucial scene out in its entirety is to take away the full climax, the Spiritual apex of the voyage itself, its purpose.

 

[Josh]

I still don't think the story has been changed that much.

The quest is still the same, to find the seven lords. The only difference is that the swords of the lords will somehow destroy Dark Island. The trailer just overemphasizes it to draw in an audience.

As for the White Witch, she's just a nightmare of Edmund's. So technically, even her appearance doesnt deviate from the book.

 

[Son of Adam]

The so-called quest to find the 7 Lords of Narnia isn't the main part of the Voyage of the Dawn Treader. That is Caspian's task or quest. The need for the Pevensies and Eustice isn't so that Caspain can complete it. They help, but the main quest is so that Aslan can redeem Eustice and try to show the Pevensies just Who He is in our land which is Jesus. The quest is just means Aslan uses to accomplish the other two. The quest itself is virtually unimportant to the overall theme and purpose of the voyage. It isn't about Narnia or Caspian, it's always only about Aslan and the spiritual aspects of the story which culminates at the end when Aslan appears as the Lamb to show the pevensies that He is Jesus in their world. That's the crux of the VOTDT.

 

[BarbarianKing]

The so-called quest to find the 7 Lords of Narnia isn't the main part of the Voyage of the Dawn Treader. That is Caspian's task or quest. The need for the Pevensies and Eustice isn't so that Caspain can complete it. They help, but the main quest is so that Aslan can redeem Eustice and try to show the Pevensies just Who He is in our land which is Jesus. The quest is just means Aslan uses to accomplish the other two. The quest itself is virtually unimportant to the overall theme and purpose of the voyage. It isn't about Narnia or Caspian, it's always only about Aslan and the spiritual aspects of the story which culminates at the end when Aslan appears as the Lamb to show the pevensies that He is Jesus in their world. That's the crux of the VOTDT.

This makes perfect sense as Caspian's quest in the book, by itself, seemed a bit silly to me. Looking for seven lords for no purpose other than find out if they were dead or alive is a waste. But seen as the means Aslan used to redeem a lost soul, and to reveal his true identity to the humans then the quest has value. Changing it to some populist-looking angle of finding seven "magical" items needed to overcome some perceived evil changes the book, the story, and the meaning to something that was never intended by the author.

Now that this change has been done, then there's no point of including the Lamb because the meaning will for sure go "over people's heads" because the audience will be more focused on said fantastical "quest" rather than on the spirituality of the book.

 

[Son of Adam]

This makes perfect sense as Caspian's quest in the book, by itself, seemed a bit silly to me. Looking for seven lords for no purpose other than find out if they were dead or alive is a waste. But seen as the means Aslan used to redeem a lost soul, and to reveal his true identity to the humans then the quest has value. Changing it to some populist-looking angle of finding seven "magical" items needed to overcome some perceived evil changes the book, the story, and the meaning to something that was never intended by the author.

Now that this change has been done, then there's no point of including the Lamb because the meaning will for sure go "over people's heads" because the audience will be more focused on said fantastical "quest" rather than on the spirituality of the book.

Unfortunately, you are correct in your analysis of the story. The concept of the Lamb would go over people's heads due to the embelishment of the Caspian quest which C.S. Lewis never intended in his book. Caspian's quest is the primary subject of the film and not redemption and revelation as in the book.

 

[mr fox]

I still don't think the story has been changed that much.

The quest is still the same, to find the seven lords. The only difference is that the swords of the lords will somehow destroy Dark Island. The trailer just overemphasizes it to draw in an audience.

As for the White Witch, she's just a nightmare of Edmund's. So technically, even her appearance doesnt deviate from the book.

that is true,i think they just had to put in in there to relate back to LLW (for people who have only seen the movies)

 

[Son of Adam]

that is true,i think they just had to put in in there to relate back to LLW (for people who have only seen the movies)

And what would be the need to have this dream sequence in there for those who have only seen the movies? That makes no sense. The tale of the White Witch ended with LWW. Let her stay dead and gone just as she was in the books.

Again, the story of VOTDT is about redemption of Eustice, like the Apostle Paul on the road to Damascus when Jesus saved him and then used Paul to win many to Himself. And revelation - the revealing of Who Aslan is in our world - Jesus, the Lamb of God. The quest for the 7 lords of Narnia was God's way of accomplishing the main two tasks. And in the book, Narnia or the Dark Island didn't need saving. Why create something else from a perfectly written story already filled with adventure, excitement, and spiritual hope?

 

[PrinceOfTheWest]

Maaaybe because some screenwriters feel they can improve on genius? Maaaybe because there's a shortage of humility, and people have difficulty acknowledging that someone else can just tell a better story than they can?

 

[Copperfox]

There's an unofficial saying in the Armed Forces: "If it ain't broke, fiddle with it until it GETS broke, then say that you improved it."

 

[Son of Adam]

Hi guys!!! (Copperfox and POW).ROFLMBO!!! You two are a real hoot!!!! Good to be back and seeing you again. Blessings on you both!!!

 

[inkspot]

I still don't think the story has been changed that much.

The quest is still the same, to find the seven lords. The only difference is that the swords of the lords will somehow destroy Dark Island. The trailer just overemphasizes it to draw in an audience.

As for the White Witch, she's just a nightmare of Edmund's. So technically, even her appearance doesnt deviate from the book.

Agreeing with Josh. And as we've heard, about the Lamb, Specter says there are lines Aslan says that make the meaning more clear even than the Lamb could. I expect Aslan will still tell the Pevensies they have to learn to know him in their world. I am willing to give it a chance.

CSL wasnt writing movies; he was telling stories. And nobody does it better. But I think the movies are a different animal, and it may be this story can be told in the movie with changes that still leave the important themes intact. I'm not going to go looking for things wrong with it. I went into PC with a good heart for it and didn't like what had happened to it -- that may happen again with VDT but I'm not going to fret about it until it does.

 

[Specter]

I don't know why Lewis would have even bothered to write in Caspian's quest if it is not at all important to the story, if not to unify what is a string of separate events in the book. What the filmmakers did was gave each of those lords a sword to carry.

Also, Lewis himself wanted to go back and revise his work on Narnia, but never got the chance to. He wanted to correct some of the timeline errors that occured, primarily.

Caspian's quest is the primary subject of the film and not redemption and revelation as in the book.

You're making quite a big assumption about a film you have not seen.