What are your fears about VODT?

Come on Paul, from what has been said about the film, the obvious trailers and an ending that doesn't fit the intent of C.S. Lewis? And yes, the story isn't primarily about the Narnian Lords. Why was Eustice brought along on the journey to begin with? Why would Aslan want him there? Reason - because He wanted to redeem Eustice as He wold be using Eustice in the future in Narnia just like the Apostle Paul. The voyage was used to be the conduit for Aslan to redeem Him. It is about revelation so that Aslan could show Edmund and Lucy a brief view of his kingdom and to reveal to them Who they were to follow in their or our world - Jesus.

In the book, there was no trouble in Narnia or the Dark Island per se, so why have it in there in the first place? Do you believe that a movie made just as it is in the book would not be good? Or do you think it would be a much better film if it stuck to the original? Just a question.
 
I think you've really put a lot of thought into the symbolism in the book that maybe others don't get or haven't seen. To me, the final scenes in the book with just the Pevensies and the Lamb are beautiful but I don't think that having Caspian there and not having the Lamb destroys the themes as you think it does. Also, when you start asking, "Why would Aslan have brought Eustace there?" I think you're starting to overanalyze the story. It was just a fairy tale ... as CSL would have been the first to point out.

On his side, he did not like movies and probably would not like his films being made into movies because he prefered kids use their imagination. I don't deny that. But once over that hurdle, I can't see that he would be saying, "I primarily intended these stories to introduce children to Jesus and not having the Lamb and having a sword quest ruins the evangelism quotient." I really can't see him objecting this way ...

Everyone is free to have whatever fears they want, but you also have to allow that for some of us, the same scenes you may think are pivotal just aren't all that important.
 
Much as I LOVE arguing and debating, didn't this thread move off topic about 12-15 pages ago? Might this conversation be better served out of the movie forum and into the Christianity section? Because, let's be honest: movies and Hollywood are secular. DIscussions should remain so, eh? Just something that's kind of been bothering me for a while...
 
(1) I have no fear whatsoever about anything. "Perfect love casts out all fear." I have concerns about the film, yes.

(2) Not really overanalyzing anything when it comes to Eustice. More attention is given in the book about Eustice than any other charcter in the story. His redemption is pivotal to VOTDT as well as "The Silver Chair" and "The Last Battle".

(3) Yes, it is a fairy tale of sorts, but one in which C.S. Lewis meant to have strong spiritual overtones. Part of its purpose was to give a picture of Jesus in our world and he never denied that part as well, and the end with the Lamb coupled with his statement to Edmund and Lucy are of great importance to the reader. And I really don't care about the part as to Caspian at least coming ashore in Aslan's Country. That part didn't happen in the book and therefore, but it isn't an alarming change to me anyway. Neither is the part about the swords in some ways. Notice I said in some ways. The biggest problem with it is that it puts the story of the 7 Lords and their swords ahead of the main themes of the book. The part with the search for the 7 lords is a background story to the real themes.

It's like the movie "Saving Private Ryan". WWII is background to the real them of the film. That's all I'm trying to relate. Want to have the swords? Fine. Want to have Caspian in Aslan's Coutry? Go ahead. Just don't lose what I and many others consider to be the real spiritual themes of the book. Yes, it was a fairy tale, but it was meant by Mr. Lewis to be a spiritual fairy tale as well. Lose the Spirit of the story, and you lose the story. IMHO :D
 
Oh, BTW, I am sure the movie will be a good film filled with everything many people will love. I just don't think it will be the "right" film. I know I am going, and will probably like it as an action fantasy story, just not as a correct C.S. Lewis' Narnia story.
 
(2) Not really overanalyzing anything when it comes to Eustice. More attention is given in the book about Eustice than any other charcter in the story. His redemption is pivotal to VOTDT as well as "The Silver Chair" and "The Last Battle".

I'd argue this point. A lot of attention is given to Eustace, but an equal or greater amount is given to Lucy (who has her own spiritual journey, of course). Once Eustace has been un-dragoned, he isn't the story's main focus anymore. Afterwards we mostly see things through Lucy's eyes.

(3) Yes, it is a fairy tale of sorts, but one in which C.S. Lewis meant to have strong spiritual overtones. Part of its purpose was to give a picture of Jesus in our world and he never denied that part as well, and the end with the Lamb coupled with his statement to Edmund and Lucy are of great importance to the reader. And I really don't care about the part as to Caspian at least coming ashore in Aslan's Country. That part didn't happen in the book and therefore, but it isn't an alarming change to me anyway. Neither is the part about the swords in some ways. Notice I said in some ways. The biggest problem with it is that it puts the story of the 7 Lords and their swords ahead of the main themes of the book. The part with the search for the 7 lords is a background story to the real themes.

It's like the movie "Saving Private Ryan". WWII is background to the real them of the film. That's all I'm trying to relate. Want to have the swords? Fine. Want to have Caspian in Aslan's Coutry? Go ahead. Just don't lose what I and many others consider to be the real spiritual themes of the book. Yes, it was a fairy tale, but it was meant by Mr. Lewis to be a spiritual fairy tale as well. Lose the Spirit of the story, and you lose the story. IMHO :D

Of course we don't want to lose the spirit of the story. Just be careful in emphasizing Lewis's meaning in writing the story in the wrong way. Good writers almost never sit down and declare, "I have a theme. Now I need to find a story that will illustrate my theme." Essayists and devotional writers may use stories in that way, but good writers of fiction generally don't (John Bunyan is the major exception to the rule). In most cases, poor writers are the only ones who approach story-writing like that. Lewis did not write the Chronicles of Narnia as a Sunday school lesson. He began the series because of a picture that got stuck in his head!

That's not to diminish the spiritual themes, but to say that those themes are not the sole reason the series exists. Also, there are many other themes in the book besides our "spiritual journey." For example, what about the theme of adventure? Eustace is deprived because he never read adventure stories (not adventure stories that are really allegories, but simply adventure stories). Lewis emphasizes throughout the book the importance of imagination, exploration, and wonder. Science, Lewis suggests, has its place, but we were created to live heroic, adventure-filled lives, and we should not allow an inflated empiricism to keep us back from the purpose for which we were created. And there are many other themes that appear in the books besides these.

Theme is important, of course, but to fixate on it before the movie's release is to jump the gun before the gun has even been loaded. Once the movie does come out, then we can analyze theme, first asking, "What does the movie say, taken on its own?" Then we can move on to "What does it say about the filmmakers that they changed this particular element of the book? Is this automatically bad, or is it potentially neutral?"

And I'm saying this as someone who re-reads the Narnia series at least once a year, and who was introduced to the books long before the movies. I care about the books very much, and I am disappointed that they will not be including the Lamb scene (it is one of my favorite scenes in the book, and almost certainly the most beautiful). However, I do not know whether this means they have majorly botched Aslan's essential character (remember, if Aslan appears as a lamb in only one of Lewis's books, it can't be a destruction of His character to not include it in the movie--or Lewis was omitting parts of his own character's character in the books). I plan to withhold judgment on that scene until I have seen the movie for myself.
 
Last edited:
Much as I LOVE arguing and debating, didn't this thread move off topic about 12-15 pages ago? Might this conversation be better served out of the movie forum and into the Christianity section? Because, let's be honest: movies and Hollywood are secular. DIscussions should remain so, eh? Just something that's kind of been bothering me for a while...

It sounds to me like a perfect chance for my "Preserving our Faith" thread to get more attention... But yeah, this is a little of topic here past "This isn't what I want to happen."
 
Come on Paul, from what has been said about the film, the obvious trailers and an ending that doesn't fit the intent of C.S. Lewis?

In the book, there was no trouble in Narnia or the Dark Island per se, so why have it in there in the first place? Do you believe that a movie made just as it is in the book would not be good? Or do you think it would be a much better film if it stuck to the original? Just a question.

What has been said about the film isn't the film itself. The trailers aren't as obvious as they appear. So far we've had a teaser about the theme of character testing/development, a sizzle-reel and a trailer about the storyline of the seven lords/swords. The film is more layered than that, and they haven't shown their full hand yet. Think of it like a game of cards: we've seen the 10 of Hearts and the Jack of Hearts. They're still holding the Queen, King and Ace and we've not yet seen those (publicly at least).

Also, if the movie was made as it was written... well, let's see.. the battle with the serpent would have been awkward. Pushing the tightly wrapped giant serpent off of the Dawn Treader would realistically be impossible to do. Especially with the tail to push it over, and that would mean making the opening in the tail wider. The Dark Island, Lewis wrote, would be too scary to write about, and filming it would be just as bad.

The reasons that you give for Eustace and Lucy to be there are not the same reasons that I got from the same book, but that's okay.

I think that the story, when it became a screenplay, needed work so that it would work as a film. In our own minds it all appears one way or another, but on screen, some times just need work. In the end, that's a very complex question, but I do believe that there should be changes where they are needed, to tell a story for this age.

Everyone is free to have whatever fears they want, but you also have to allow that for some of us, the same scenes you may think are pivotal just aren't all that important.

I agree completely. While to some the Lamb is the most important scene, to others the Un-dragoning is, and still others, the Library scene.

Of course we don't want to lose the spirit of the story. Just be careful in emphasizing Lewis's meaning in writing the story in the wrong way. Good writers almost never sit down and declare, "I have a theme. Now I need to find a story that will illustrate my theme." Essayists and devotional writers may use stories in that way, but good writers of fiction generally don't (John Bunyan is the major exception to the rule). In most cases, poor writers are the only ones who approach story-writing like that. Lewis did not write the Chronicles of Narnia as a Sunday school lesson. He began the series because of a picture that got stuck in his head!

I agree with everything you wrote. Well said!
 
You know I was thinking, if they don't put the Lamb to Lion scene in this movie, maybe they can put it in another? Maybe to Jill and Eustace at the End of the Silver Chair, or Shasta and Aravis?
 
You know I was thinking, if they don't put the Lamb to Lion scene in this movie, maybe they can put it in another? Maybe to Jill and Eustace at the End of the Silver Chair, or Shasta and Aravis?

But then people would be complaining that it's not part of those stories. The problem with putting it into either of those: Silver chair will have a lot of CG giants if they keep the giant parts in the movie, not to mention if they decide to CG PUddleglum or the Earthmen. In Horse and His Boy, will they CG the horses, or just the mouths of the horses? What about all the other Narnian creatures that are in the story?

I mean, if we're hopeful and if they keep those two stories the same (or nearly anyway), there's no good place for Aslan to be a lamb, unless you have him appear as a lamb to Jill when they're in the giants' castle. But to be perfectly honest, you can't please some people regardless of what you do to try.
 
I think the Lamb scene would probably work better with Shasta.

For instance, when he's running to warn King Lune about Rabadash he gets tired and lost and he runs into Aslan. The movie could have him run into a lamb who offers him water, and then the lamb turns into Aslan the lion.
 
I think the Lamb scene would probably work better with Shasta.

For instance, when he's running to warn King Lune about Rabadash he gets tired and lost and he runs into Aslan. The movie could have him run into a lamb who offers him water, and then the lamb turns into Aslan the lion.

Since HHB is my favorite, that takes away from the mystery of the Large Voice at Shasta's side. So, I would be personally unhappy with that, and I doubt that they would add a lamb in a desert-set movie.

But this is off-topic.
 
You know now that we've seen that trailer on the Polish site, I don't really have many fears for the film anymore. Especially since Specter tells us that Aslan's dialog leaves no doubt as to his identity in our world. I think this looks like it's going to be a really cool film.
 
I'm still suspending judgement. I'm skeptical, but I want to see the whole film first. I don't want to go in prejudiced (though it's hard after the Caspian debacle), and though there are elements of the trailer that appear totally alien to the story, I want to see them in context first. One could have made a trailer out of elements of Lion that would have made it look totally screwed up, and the truth was it wasn't that bad. The modifications there (e.g. the waterfall scene) didn't modify the story line much. So, I'll wait and hope.
 
I'm still suspending judgement. I'm skeptical, but I want to see the whole film first. I don't want to go in prejudiced (though it's hard after the Caspian debacle), and though there are elements of the trailer that appear totally alien to the story, I want to see them in context first. One could have made a trailer out of elements of Lion that would have made it look totally screwed up, and the truth was it wasn't that bad. The modifications there (e.g. the waterfall scene) didn't modify the story line much. So, I'll wait and hope.

^Though I'm really excited to see it, there are certain things I'm worried about (the whole 7 swords thing and the Dark Island stuff), but like you, I want to wait to see them in context before I make a final judgment. Trailers can be really misleading....just look at the Lord of the Rings trailers. Some of the REturn of the King or Two Towers trailers had teaser footage that 1. either didn't show up at all in the movies (Not even the extended cuts), or 2. wasn't in that particular movie; it showed up in another one.

Bridge to Terabinthia's trailer made me want to see it, but after I saw the movie (and read the book), I wondered why I wasted my time on it. Copycats of Narnia are NOT successful. ;)
 
I don't think you can call Bridge to Terebithia a Narnia copycat, whatever the trailer wanted you to think--the book is about friendship and death, not God or adventure. (That book breaks my heart into a million pieces, and because I assumed the movie wouldn't kill off a child the movie broke my heart too.)

On topic--

1) I don't think the Lamb scene is critical, honestly. There are plenty of people who managed to get through all seven books without seeing the Christianity parallels (me, for example--I was probably about nine when I finally realized), and there are people who realize in the first book, but I don't think the Lamb is ever a make-or-break moment. If you can overlook the rest of it you can overlook the Lamb too; if the Lamb is obvious the rest of it will probably be obvious too. Personally, it was the Stone Table that made my friend and me realize ("Hey! THIS IS SORT OF LIKE SUNDAY SCHOOL! Do you think anyone else has ever realized this?!" Oh, to be nine again.)

2) I think it's entirely fair to base seeing the movie off the trailer. I do it all the time--every time I go to a movie I see five or six trailers, and then I decide from there which ones to see. Movies in theaters are expensive and time-consuming; it's entirely fair to pre-judge based on promos whether you want to take that time and money. And people steer each other away (or toward) movies all the time based on trailers--oh, that looks good, let's see it; oh, that one looks dumb, let's not. I don't see that Narnia needs any special treatment.

3) Can someone explain how the seven lords are related to the seven deadly sins? I could have sworn it popped up in this thread, and I can only figure that the final three lords kind of count for wrath and greed, and the Dragon Island lord maybe for greed--I can't figure the other five at all.
 
I don't think you can call Bridge to Terebithia a Narnia copycat, whatever the trailer wanted you to think--the book is about friendship and death, not God or adventure. (That book breaks my heart into a million pieces, and because I assumed the movie wouldn't kill off a child the movie broke my heart too.)

I saw the movie and read the book, and just the way the story went made it seem like a Narnia copy. Not to mention, the use of disrespect and language in the story made me wonder how it could be intended for children...
On topic--

1) I don't think the Lamb scene is critical, honestly. There are plenty of people who managed to get through all seven books without seeing the Christianity parallels (me, for example--I was probably about nine when I finally realized), and there are people who realize in the first book, but I don't think the Lamb is ever a make-or-break moment. If you can overlook the rest of it you can overlook the Lamb too; if the Lamb is obvious the rest of it will probably be obvious too. Personally, it was the Stone Table that made my friend and me realize ("Hey! THIS IS SORT OF LIKE SUNDAY SCHOOL! Do you think anyone else has ever realized this?!" Oh, to be nine again.)

Can't say anything more to that except that I agree.

2) I think it's entirely fair to base seeing the movie off the trailer. I do it all the time--every time I go to a movie I see five or six trailers, and then I decide from there which ones to see. Movies in theaters are expensive and time-consuming; it's entirely fair to pre-judge based on promos whether you want to take that time and money. And people steer each other away (or toward) movies all the time based on trailers--oh, that looks good, let's see it; oh, that one looks dumb, let's not. I don't see that Narnia needs any special treatment.

I think there's a difference between wanting to see a movie based on the trailer vs. judging the plot of the movie based on the trailer. I think what the argument in this thread (and on this forum) is the fact that people are judging the movie prior to release; they're not just deciding not to see it, they're deciding that the story has been completely changed and that it's unworthy of a movie ticket. There's a big difference between the two. (I can say that I've decided never to watch harry Potter after the Deathly Hallows preview I saw a week ago; that made my skin crawl, and it wasn't because I was moved.)

3) Can someone explain how the seven lords are related to the seven deadly sins? I could have sworn it popped up in this thread, and I can only figure that the final three lords kind of count for wrath and greed, and the Dragon Island lord maybe for greed--I can't figure the other five at all.

I must've skipped that part in the thread....did the 7 Lords have that symbolism in the book?
 
I must've skipped that part in the thread....did the 7 Lords have that symbolism in the book?

I've wondered about that myself. I can see where some of the lords might have sins ascribed to them, but Lord Bern doesn't seem guilty of any "sin" except falling in love with his wife, if the seven deadly sins that the previous poster had in mind were gluttony, lust, greed, despair, wrath, sloth, vainglory, and pride. (Lust? Really?)

I also don't recall Lewis explaining whether the lord who was trapped on the Dark Island (Rhoop?) did anything to deserve being there. I suppose he was in despair when they found him, but blaming that on him after what he had been through seems slightly ludicrous.

My question is, did Lewis himself ever specifically identify the seven lords with the seven deadly sins?
 
Last edited:
Back
Top