You know its easy to criticize movie Peter when watching the film but...

[AsbelMctalisker]

At the same time, the King has an obligation to conduct himself in a noble way.

Yes, but its an obligation to God (or Aslan) not to the monarch`s subjects

It's all questionable whether Aslan would have intended that simple becuse Peter was High King no one was allowed to question his judgment.

What Aslan intended I wouldn`t like to say but in `real world` history it was interpreted that way. This is in fact why it became necessary to force kings to sign charters to grant rights under law to first the Nobles then the greater public.

Clearly his other noble siblings did, all the time, and in the book he doesn't take it badly and demand everyone do what he says.

About the only instance of that I can think of in the film is in the scene where he blows up at Caspian after the castle raid.
He is still under no obligation to apologise afterwards, what he actually said are actually some `home truths` Caspian needs to address concerning his Telmarine background if he wants to rule the Narnians and I note that Caspian himself dosn`t seem to want to admit any responsability for what happened in the raid.
In fact Caspians next action is to reject the Pevensies and go find another ancient power that he thinks will give him what he wants!

 

[inkspot]

Peter is under no obligation to apologize; he was under an obligation to conduct himself like a King, an obligation in which he failed.

I think it's just that if you have a certain old-school mindset about chivalry and what a good leader is (in That Hideous Strength Ransom says his masters are not old-fashioned, but they are very old) then you find film Peter to be a whiny brat who fails in his obligation to behave like a King.

Whereas if you have the more recent idea that a King is someone whose will ought to be obeyed and who has a right to treat others rudely because -- well, he's the king -- then you think film Peter is a good leader, good king, or at least understandable, etc.

For me, I prefer book Peter who conducts himself as if he remember what it means to be a king.

 

[inkspot]

Peter is under no obligation to apologize; he was under an obligation to conduct himself like a King, an obligation in which he failed.

I think it's just that if you have a certain old-school mindset about chivalry and what a good leader is (in That Hideous Strength Ransom says his masters are not old-fashioned, but they are very old) then you find film Peter to be a whiny brat who fails in his obligation to behave like a King.

Whereas if you have the more recent idea that a King is someone whose will ought to be obeyed and who has a right to treat others rudely because -- well, he's the king -- then you think film Peter is a good leader, good king, or at least understandable, etc.

For me, I prefer book Peter who conducts himself as if he remember what it means to be a king.

 

[~Queen~Wylla~]

You know, it occurs to me that this debate hinges on the fact that a lot of people just dont get the importance Lewis places on the medieval idea of an anointed king in the Narnia stories.
In Peter`s case its particularly important as he is THE HIGH KING appointed by Aslan himself to rule even over all the other Narnian kings.
This means that, in effect the ONLY person to which he has to justify himself to is Aslan, nobody else has the right to question his judgement or be apologised to!

Now, the High King aspect is crucial if you want to figure out what is going on throughout the film.
As to why he expects to return to Narnia, well remember "Once a King or Queen in Narnia, ALWAYS a King or Queen".
He is bing a bit childish with his "it`s been a year" comment, he should expect it to take a lifetime if neccessary but he has every reason to assume that he is in a `Once and Future King` situation and will, at some point be called back.

Once back in Narnia he has every reason to assume that his job is to take up the kingship once more as that is what he is SUPPOSED to do!
He actually starts outs rather well, leading the others in the RIGHT direction, despite some questioning of his judgement from some quarters and its only when they reach the gorge that things begin to go wrong.
Lucy, of course sees Aslan who is showing them the way to cross but He dosn`t, undermining his confidence, as a result he `goes with the majority` and follows Susan and Trumpkin`s idea of heading downriver straight in to the Telmarine army!

Now, this one of the key areas where the book and film diverge.
In the following campfire scene in the book Lucy finds Aslan then helps the others see him, this means that by the time the Pevensies join forces with Caspian they all have a clear idea what they are supposed to be doing.

In the film Lucy does meet Aslan but it turns out to be a dream (though a prophetic one). This means Peter still has some self-confidence issues which result in him making some serious mistakes in the mid point of the film.
He actually falls in to the same trap that the Narnians have, in assuming that its Peter and his ability as a general that they need to save Narnia and not as is actually the case, for the broken link with Aslan to be renewed.
Something that only Lucy really understands at that point.
He also has to deal with a Prince Caspian that appears to think that HE should be in command, that the Pevensies are just there to put him on the Telmarine throne and help him avenge his father!

After the castle raid and the near return of the witch however, he begins to see his mistake, probably helped by Lucy.
So by that point the story is more or less back on track with Peter willing to risk his life in a duel with Miraz just to by time for Lucy to find Aslan.
(And I note that the film adds a point where Susan ALSO does this!)

By the end of the film, Peter has finally met Aslan (who probably had more than a few things to say to him!) and understands that he is no longer needed, which is why he passes his sword to Caspian.
From that point onwards it will be Caspian and his heirs who will rule in Narnia, in the name of Aslan and High King Peter and NOT because Caspians father happened to be a Telmarine King.

The issue is about the differenecs between the book and the movies. In the books Peter is not so impatient about going back to Narnia.
Okay about Peter having to deal with a Prince Caspian who thinks he should be King. This is also not in the books. Caspian told Aslan that he didn't think he was ready. Ye they show this at the end of the movie but I thought the whole book did that too.
Also Caspian is a legitamate King because his people are origionaly from "our world" because a "son of Adam" is the one to be king of Narnia. That is what Aslan set up when he created Narnia. Aslan even told Caspian that was the reason Caspian could be King.

At the same time, the King has an obligation to conduct himself in a noble way. This is something CSL clearly believed, as has been noted in anothe thread: the noble was obligated to behave with courtesy (as when Rilian unenchanted still speaks fairly to the Green witch, and when Corin is corrected for making fun of Rabadash.) A king was expected to conform to a certain standard of noblesse oblige, and film Peter fails miserably at that. It's all questionable whether Aslan would have intended that simple becuse Peter was High King no one was allowed to question his judgment. Clearly his other noble siblings did, all the time, and in the book he doesn't take it badly and demand everyone do what he says.

The film simply took the nobility out of him and left him an awkward 21st Century teen.

I absolutly agree with inkspot!

 

[MrBob]

"As to why he expects to return to Narnia, well remember "Once a King or Queen in Narnia, ALWAYS a King or Queen".
He is bing a bit childish with his "it`s been a year" comment, he should expect it to take a lifetime if neccessary but he has every reason to assume that he is in a `Once and Future King` situation and will, at some point be called back."

Asbel, As I mentioned, he knew no one who had ever been to Narnia more than once (not counting Lucy and Edmund who went in teh same time frame). You would imagine the first Lord and Lady of Narnia, Digory and Polly, who brought the first King to Narnia and went on the first mission to keep Narnia safe would have returned.

Also, remember that "Once a King or Queen in Narnia, ALWAYS a King or Queen" also goes with the attitude. Whether he wanted to accept it, Peter was representing Narnia in England. He was still King Peter of Narnia even if it meant nothing to anyone else there. Those are big shoes to fill, but he had filled them well in Narnia. All he had to do was to come back and live up to his own expectations that he would have for his siblings or even any of his soldiers. He failed at that.

MrBob

 

[AsbelMctalisker]

Also Caspian is a legitamate King because his people are origionaly from "our world" because a "son of Adam" is the one to be king of Narnia. That is what Aslan set up when he created Narnia. Aslan even told Caspian that was the reason Caspian could be King.

The trouble with that idea is that it also applies to Miraz and all the other Telmarine kings before him!
Caspian is, at best a prince in waiting NOT a king throughout most of the film.
Its only at the end, when Aslan includes him with the Pevensies with the "Rise, kings and Queens of Narnia........ALL of you." line that he truly becomes the legitamate heir.

Asbel, As I mentioned, he knew no one who had ever been to Narnia more than once (not counting Lucy and Edmund who went in the same time frame). You would imagine the first Lord and Lady of Narnia, Digory and Polly, who brought the first King to Narnia and went on the first mission to keep Narnia safe would have returned.

The difference there is that neither Diggory or Polly were ever chosen by Aslan to rule in Narnia nor did they spend all that much time in that world.
The people that Aslan chose to fill that position were King Frank and Queen Helen, who then spent the rest of there lives in Narnia.
Peter and his siblings, on the other hand were first crowned as Kings and Queens then ruled for a good number of years before being sent back to England rather abruptly. (If you work it out, with the possible exception of Susan the greater part of their lifespan is spent there rather than in England!)
It would be far kinder surely to let them live out their lives in Narnia unless there was an overwhelmingly good reason to put them somewhere where they can be brought back later if needed.

Also, remember that "Once a King or Queen in Narnia, ALWAYS a King or Queen" also goes with the attitude. Whether he wanted to accept it, Peter was representing Narnia in England. He was still King Peter of Narnia even if it meant nothing to anyone else there. Those are big shoes to fill, but he had filled them well in Narnia. All he had to do was to come back and live up to his own expectations that he would have for his siblings or even any of his soldiers. He failed at that.

The question I would ask here is what evidence do you actually have that he did fail?
He made mistakes certainly, but did his best to put them right once he realised that he had made them.

 

[slmerlinfan]

I think peter says Lucy Becuse one he knows she is now safe from harm whereas he dint know before hnd that she was and secondly as somelse has said maybe aknowledgeuing that Aslan has been found.

 

[~Queen~Wylla~]

The trouble with that idea is that it also applies to Miraz and all the other Telmarine kings before him!
Caspian is, at best a prince in waiting NOT a king throughout most of the film.
Its only at the end, when Aslan includes him with the Pevensies with the "Rise, kings and Queens of Narnia........ALL of you." line that he truly becomes the legitamate heir.

Yes they could have been but Aslan didn't set them up, they took over Narnia by force and did not like the actuall Narnians they were not good kings. Yes Aslan needed to "legalize" it but he is still legitimate becasuse he is a Son of Adam. This is even something Trufflehunter said that Narnia was never right without a Son of Adam on the throne. Truflehunter also recognised that Caspian was the True King.

 

[~Lava~]

Wow, alot can happen when one cannot access the internet for four days. I am addressing old stuff so bear with me.

1) The White Witch scene: He runs in,ready to stop Caspian from allowing the witch to come back. He may have stepped into the enchanted circle, but I do not think that he would have known that it was enchanted. My reasoning is that there is no evidence that the witches followers ever tried to bring her back, so logically, Peter would have no knowledge of that sort of thing. And yes, Caspian is not totally to blame either..

Again, I must disagree with you by pointing out facts. The enchanted circle, in mythology (I believe Merlin used it) was a tool of all sorcery, not just spells to call people up. As such, he would have encountered them in multiple purposes and would have known that it was not a place to be stepping into. On top of that, Peter had an advantage over any and all Narnians in that he, like all his siblings and unlike Eustace, had read fantasy books in our world. He knew even if he had never seen it used to call up the witch. He would have known.

@ Asbel: I really disagree with the premise that Peter was King in the fasion of the historical Medieval Kings. But actually, he was King in the fasion of the legendary King Arthur. If you have read the Arthurian legends then you know as well as I that Arthur stood for fairness to all his subjects. He may not have needed to apologize for his actions but he did need to be fair and a good king would have apologized. Also, you seem to be under the opinion that Peter was there to do more than just put Caspian into the Throne. Lewis, himself, said otherwise through Peter's mouth.

 

[MrBob]

"The trouble with that idea is that it also applies to Miraz and all the other Telmarine kings before him!"

And it does, Asbel. They could also rightfully call themselves kings and queens. Remember that Jadis was never allowed to call herself queen of Narnia. No one could ecept for sons and daughters of Adam and Eve.

"The difference there is that neither Diggory or Polly were ever chosen by Aslan to rule in Narnia nor did they spend all that much time in that world."

Exactly. At that time, there were only six people who had gone to Narnia and come back to England. Before PC, no one had gone back to Narnia. The first king and queen who came from England has stayed there. There was no precedent for them returning to Narnia while there was precedent for kings and queens staying in Narnia.

"The question I would ask here is what evidence do you actually have that he did fail?"

Peter was one representative of Narnia in England. If he was your only example of how people who go to Narnia act, what would you think?

MrBob

 

[QueenLucyTheValient]

Asbel, I agree with you on everything that you have said!!

Again, I must disagree with you by pointing out facts. The enchanted circle, in mythology (I believe Merlin used it) was a tool of all sorcery, not just spells to call people up. As such, he would have encountered them in multiple purposes and would have known that it was not a place to be stepping into. On top of that, Peter had an advantage over any and all Narnians in that he, like all his siblings and unlike Eustace, had read fantasy books in our world. He knew even if he had never seen it used to call up the witch. He would have known.

I still do not believe that he would have ever encountered something like that circle... Why, because if he did, he would not have been stupid enough to step into the circle. If he did know about it, and did see it, then we can make the assumption that he was willing to risk a whole lot in order that Caspian would not bring the Witch back. And it may have been a distraction, as someone stated earlier. He may have seemed surprised when he first came out of the trance, but that was probablybecause he had just come out of a trance.

The question I would ask here is what evidence do you actually have that he did fail?
He made mistakes certainly, but did his best to put them right once he realised that he had made them.

YES!! YES!!! YES!!! I agree totally!!! He made mistakes but when he realized that he had made them he did everything he could to put them right. He did the duel, knowing full well that he could die, trying to fix his mistakes!!!!!!! That is not only an apology enough, it is a total hero. Someone who will risk their life to fix their mistakes!!

 

[~Lava~]

So, even though all of the textual evidence in the book points to the fact that Peter would know about the enchanted circle you still don't think that Peter knew what the circle was about. Including parts from four different Narnia books.

LWW: "At first much of their time was spent in seeking out the remnants of the of the White Witch's army and destroying them,and indeed for a long time there would be news of evil things lurking in the wilder part of the forest--a haunting here and a killing there, a glimpse of a werewolf one month and a rumor of a hag the next. But in the end all that foul brood was stamped out."

This is the physical proof that they spent the first year or so dealing with the witch's followers and they were still performing magic rituals that often included the circles.

And even Eustace knew about the circles and he did not read the fantasy books or even believe that sort of thing until a few months before he discussed them to Jill.

 

[AsbelMctalisker]

It might be a good idea to look a bit more closely at what is going on in the `Sorcery and sudden Vengeance` scene as it is portrayed in the film (the book, of course is a bit different).
Firstly, the location.
The Stone Table.
We know from the TLTWATW book that this a place where dark magic practices were conducted in the time of the White Witch and before and is, of course the place of Aslans death and reserection.
It may, in fact be the ONLY place in Narnia where the sort of ritual they are trying to perform has a chance of succeeding.
Secondly
The Artifact.
They have a part of Jadis`s Wand! (The front bit, I think).
This almost HAS to be a dark magic equivelant of `Queen Susan`s Horn`.
Its as least as old as the horn (and maybe even older!) and definately magical in nature.
Thirdly
The Ritual
Notice that the `Ice Portal` it creates is located inside the SAME archway through which Aslan appeared to the Pevensie girls 1300 years earlier.

And there is the use of Caspian as a `sacrificial goat`.
Since Jadis was killed by Aslan hundreds of years earlier then what they must have summoned up is some sort of ghost or spirit that has been trapped somewhere since that time.
They must need someones body to put her in in order to bring her back, though I think that what would actually happen if their hands had met would be that Caspian would end up behind the portal and Jadis would be in the circle!
I notice also in passing that the breath of anybody standing in the circle is visible. It must be very cold inside there, like they are at least partly inside Jadis`s prison.

From all that it looks to me that whats going on is something way out of the ordinary for Narnian Hag-Magic and probably has `Deep Magic` elements to it.

 

[AsbelMctalisker]

Asbel: I really disagree with the premise that Peter was King in the fasion of the historical Medieval Kings. But actually, he was King in the fasion of the legendary King Arthur. If you have read the Arthurian legends then you know as well as I that Arthur stood for fairness to all his subjects. He may not have needed to apologize for his actions but he did need to be fair and a good king would have apologized. Also, you seem to be under the opinion that Peter was there to do more than just put Caspian into the Throne. Lewis, himself, said otherwise through Peter's mouth.

Actually there was.
Their main job as I see it was actually to act as a bridge between the Narnian people and Aslan so that the broken link between the two could be mended.
Placing Caspian on the throne as a legitimate king is part of that but not everything. There also has to be a healing of the land and peace has to be made between the original Narnians and its newer human inhabitants.

What Lewis was actually doing with Narnia was in fact to create a fantasy where the Medieval view of the world was how that world actually worked!
Our world unfortunately dosn`t work that way.
The Arthurian stories themselves show that, Arthur is a Medieval view of how a King SHOULD be and act.
Unfortunately, eventually it all goes wrong for Arthur and Camelot falls!

a good king would have apologized

Yes he would, but, as I`ve said before that apology would have been made to Aslan, not to whoever he offended against.

 

[MrBob]

The apology issue made me think of a book I read called "The Wizard's Dillemma". In that, Nita had a fight with her friend (she is 14, her friend is 13) and she is talking with her mother in vague terms about what to do when you have a fight with someone and you were right. The mother's answer is to apologize immediately. It is the same advice you give when you have a fight and are wrong.

This is the issue. Apologies should be given by both for fighting. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong, all that matters is who is how they composed themselves in the argument. In this case, neither Peter nor Caspian was especially mature in how they composed themsleves so both should apologize for letting things get so far.

About the circle, that doesn't matter to me much, I just see it as Peter saving Caspian by recognizing what was going on and then getting entranced. He did stall for long enough for something else to happen.

MrBob

 

[QueenLucyTheValient]

Their main job as I see it was actually to act as a bridge between the Narnian people and Aslan so that the broken link between the two could be mended.
Placing Caspian on the throne as a legitimate king is part of that but not everything. There also has to be a healing of the land and peace has to be made between the original Narnians and its newer human inhabitants.

I agree with you!! That is actually a really good point!! I never looked at it that way, and I think that you are right!!

So, even though all of the textual evidence in the book points to the fact that Peter would know about the enchanted circle you still don't think that Peter knew what the circle was about. Including parts from four different Narnia books.

Quote:
LWW: "At first much of their time was spent in seeking out the remnants of the of the White Witch's army and destroying them,and indeed for a long time there would be news of evil things lurking in the wilder part of the forest--a haunting here and a killing there, a glimpse of a werewolf one month and a rumor of a hag the next. But in the end all that foul brood was stamped out."
This is the physical proof that they spent the first year or so dealing with the witch's followers and they were still performing magic rituals that often included the circles.

And even Eustace knew about the circles and he did not read the fantasy books or even believe that sort of thing until a few months before he discussed them to Jill.

How do YOU know that they dealt with circles at all? I am not arguing with the fact that they dealt with the witches followers, but how do YOU know that they ever dealt with circles?!?
As for Eustace, he probably read about it in one of his novels, because he certainly could not have had any experience with circles....

If Peter did know about circles, then he did what he did in that scene because he wanted to spare Caspian from that, because Caspian would not have known how circles like that worked. Also he could have decided to serve as distraction, and knowing both Peter's, they would both do that, partly because they have complete faith in their brother, and partly because they both have the strength to stand up to that sort of magic for longer than Caspian. Yes, Ed could have completely ignored her but kept her occupied long enough, but Peter did, and wether he meant it or not, he served as a distraction while Ed destroyed the witch...

 

[AsbelMctalisker]

About the circle, that doesn't matter to me much, I just see it as Peter saving Caspian by recognizing what was going on and then getting entranced. He did stall for long enough for something else to happen.

If Peter did know about circles, then he did what he did in that scene because he wanted to spare Caspian from that, because Caspian would not have known how circles like that worked. Also he could have decided to serve as distraction, and knowing both Peter's, they would both do that, partly because they have complete faith in their brother, and partly because they both have the strength to stand up to that sort of magic for longer than Caspian. Yes, Ed could have completely ignored her but kept her occupied long enough, but Peter did, and wether he meant it or not, he served as a distraction while Ed destroyed the witch...

I`ve just been watching the film again on TV and it occured to me that the whole sequence from when Peter sees Caspian about to hold the witches hand to the point where Edmund thrusts his sword through the portal takes just slightly more than a minute from beginning to end.
So Peter has very little time to act in what is a "better to do the wrong thing immediately than stop and work out what the right thing is" situation.

 

[~Lava~]

How do I know they worked with circles:

Point 1: In Lewis's source material (the legends that he drew the creatures from) circles were a common tool used in magic rituals.

Point 2: It was the tools that the book talked about for calling back the White Witch, and Dr. Cornelius and the others automatically knew they were going to try to call up the Witch. I think the book can be quoted as saying "So that is your plan, Nikabrik! Black sorcery and the calling up of an accursed ghost...." Actually, I believe Lewis puts it in Caspian's mouth. Bang goes the theory that Caspian was ignorant of the implications of the circle.

Point 3: Peter says at the picking of the marshalls that he did not know how the bears had remembered their traditional post when so much else was lost. Implying that stuff that was common knowledge during the Golden Age was lost and yet all of the people in the room knew what drawing the circle and preparing the blue fire meant.

Point 4: Dawn Treader clearly states that the Pevensies had read the type of books that would let them know about things like dragons and enchantment. As a matter of fact, they had probably have read the same legends that I have read were circles were used in magic rituals.

Point 5: As I said before, Eustace, before his encounter with Narnia had never read books that would tell him about dragons and enchantments and yet a few short months later (after the summer was over), he knew about the circles when he discussed them with Jill in Silver Chair. That could only come about in two ways. He A) read the right type of books but even then it would have been ones that his cousins suggested or B) got told stories about his cousin's adventures in Narnia.


I could list more, but just by the five I have listed. The only logical explaination is that bookPeter knew about them.


None of these textual inferences can be applied to the moviePeter though because Marcus and McFeely did not seem to confine themselves to what Lewis said was truth when they wrote the script.

 

[QueenLucyTheValient]

okay, so he knew about the circle, but did you actually read the last part of my post?!?! If not, here it is again:

If Peter did know about circles, then he did what he did in that scene because he wanted to spare Caspian from that, because Caspian would not have known how circles like that worked. Also he could have decided to serve as distraction, and knowing both Peter's, they would both do that, partly because they have complete faith in their brother, and partly because they both have the strength to stand up to that sort of magic for longer than Caspian. Yes, Ed could have completely ignored her but kept her occupied long enough, but Peter did, and wether he meant it or not, he served as a distraction while Ed destroyed the witch...

 

[~Lava~]

The book again proves the part about Caspian not knowing wrong, read point 2


The distraction theory is all nice and everything but if he was intending to use himself as a distraction then why did Edmund's cutting remark "I know, you had it sorted" wind up in the script and why did Peter not defend himself when Ed said it if Ed didn't know the plan.


I actually think that thing can be attributed more to Peter making the mistake that all were making when they tried to de-wand the witch in LWW than him trying to distract the witch for Ed. In LWW, ed succeeded in breaking the wand because he attacked from the side and not the front.