You know its easy to criticize movie Peter when watching the film but...

[Soldier of Aslan]

I'm not sure that 'Vamp' would naturally apply to Jadis. I mean a 'Vamp' normally is
A)bad
B) knows it
C)Doesn't give a care
D) uses her sexuality to her advantage
Jadis is missing 'D' (thankfully), and I would more categorize her as Heartless, a'la Snow Queen (http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/snowqueen/index.html) than a 'Vamp'. Interestingly enough the Snow Queen and Jadis are very similar...

On a side note how come Edmund fears the Green Mist memory of Jadis , when in PC he was the one to destroy her?

 

[Sir Tom the Dragon Knight]

On a side note how come Edmund fears the Green Mist memory of Jadis , when in PC he was the one to destroy her?

She's like a past sin, in fact she is part of his past sins. The reason Edmund fears her is because of what she did to him so many years ago. Sure, one can defeat a past sin, but some times they can still come back to haunt you later. I know the feeling quite well.

 

[Soldier of Aslan]

She's like a past sin, in fact she is part of his past sins. The reason Edmund fears her is because of what she did to him so many years ago. Sure, one can defeat a past sin, but some times they can still come back to haunt you later. I know the feeling quite well.

I get that he fears her, but he had no fears during the resurrection scene in PC. But then again we see little of Ed and being a guy I don't expect him yo go all Oprah. Perhaps he took courage despite his fear when he 'killed' Jadis?

 

[QueenLucyTheValient]

Please tell me in great detail exactly what he did that shows repentance. I would like to think this through further.

If I were to go into all of that right here, it would take a while, so I will just shorten it to a paragraph or so.
Firstly, after the White Witch scene, when he and Lucy are talking, he says that he wishes that he had seen Aslan, meaning that he envies Lucy for having seen him when he had not. He believed in Aslan, and believed that Aslan was there, but just had not come to help yet.
Secondly, at and just before the Duel. I am going to repeat myself again when I say that he risked his life in order that his sister might have the chance to find Aslan, whom he knew was out there and would save them. He risked his life for Narnia, the country he loved and would sacrifice for.
Thirdly, the part when they meet Aslan and after (cause the battle ties in with the Duel). When they meet Aslan, they immediately cross the river to bow down before him, they including Peter. He totally shows reverence to Aslan, and even the look on his face is one of humility. He doesnt say anything in that scene, but in the scene after he does. He is the first to say that they have to leave Narnia. Do you think that the Peter that you see would be the first to say that? The Peter you see would have waited for someone else to say something, or try to deny it altogether. He encourages Lucy, and is totally humble and realizes that he is needed at home. What was it that Ed says in the end of the VDT movie, after Lucy asks him why he wanted to leave and if he liked Narnia. He said that he loved Narnia, but that they were needed at home, and he loved home, because it was where they belonged. That is how Peter feels, from what I see.

I sometimes wonder if the whole problem with this film`s characters is due to the fact that we are so familiar with how teens are `supposed` to act thanks to all the teen orientated dramas that are everywhere these days that, in a film like this where children are being portrayed as functioning in what are actually very adult roles the audience tends to misread the cues.

So the problem with Peter could be Will`s performance, Adamsons direction or it might just be the fault of the audience!

I honestly believe that it is the audiences fault for not seeing what is clearly displayed in what I mentioned above, for example. Will's performance was great. Adamsons messing with the script was another problem, if you are going to go there...

And this happens just after Peter and Susan`s final `heart to heart` with Aslan.
So I think he is going to be just a LITTLE emotional over the fact that he is leaving Narnia, never to return.

YES!!!! EXACTLY!!!!!!!!! That is such a good point!!! Of course he would be emotional about leaving not only Narnia, but Aslan, never to see them again when he was alive!!!!

 

[MrBob]

"No, he said, "I think we've waited for Aslan long enough." What he means is that he doesn't think Aslan is just going to come roaring in like He does in the end times. Peter believed that this time they just had to do the best they could until Aslan shows Himself again."

Sir Tom, this line came after Lucy tried to remind Peter who really won the battle. Susan had already sisded wth Caspian and Peter felt baced into a corner. He lashed out at Lucy with that statement both as a way to seem more kingly and commanding as well as a way to prove that he could do this without Aslan. He was upset at Aslan for taking so long to bring them back to Narnia, for abandoning Narnia (as well as the guilt he felt for having abandoned Narnia themselves), and for not being there to help him.

At the end, Peter has been humbled.

MrBob

 

[Sir Tom the Dragon Knight]

"No, he said, "I think we've waited for Aslan long enough." What he means is that he doesn't think Aslan is just going to come roaring in like He does in the end times. Peter believed that this time they just had to do the best they could until Aslan shows Himself again."

Sir Tom, this line came after Lucy tried to remind Peter who really won the battle. Susan had already sisded wth Caspian and Peter felt baced into a corner. He lashed out at Lucy with that statement both as a way to seem more kingly and commanding as well as a way to prove that he could do this without Aslan. He was upset at Aslan for taking so long to bring them back to Narnia, for abandoning Narnia (as well as the guilt he felt for having abandoned Narnia themselves), and for not being there to help him.

At the end, Peter has been humbled.

MrBob

That's not the impression I got from it.

 

[AsbelMctalisker]

"No, he said, "I think we've waited for Aslan long enough." What he means is that he doesn't think Aslan is just going to come roaring in like He does in the end times. Peter believed that this time they just had to do the best they could until Aslan shows Himself again."

Sir Tom, this line came after Lucy tried to remind Peter who really won the battle. Susan had already sisded wth Caspian and Peter felt baced into a corner. He lashed out at Lucy with that statement both as a way to seem more kingly and commanding as well as a way to prove that he could do this without Aslan. He was upset at Aslan for taking so long to bring them back to Narnia, for abandoning Narnia (as well as the guilt he felt for having abandoned Narnia themselves), and for not being there to help him.

At the end, Peter has been humbled.

MrBob

Earlier, when they first see the Stone Table underground he also delivers the line "I think its up to us now" so I think that what he says has an element of "we have to do something now and not sit around waiting for Aslan to save us" about it.
His big mistake is to still think of Lucy as his little sister and not as Queen Lucy.

Something that occured to me recently concerning the whole `Aslan abandoned Narnia` issue in general.
The book and film don`t really tell us much about what happened at the time of the Telmarine invasion but, in thinking about it I realised that there was one part of the old Narnian kingdom the Telmarines never conquered.
The Lone Islands remained in Narnian hands under the rule of its governors right down to Caspians time so, if Gumpas and Co are any indication of the quality of the people running Narnia at the time of the invasion then is it any surprise Aslan didn`t help?
If the Narnia of that time was corrupt then if Aslan WAS around back then he would surely be more likely be seen helping any `true believers` to escape to the forests and fight back from there.
So perhaps the Telmarines have very good reasons to fear the woods!

 

[~Queen~Wylla~]

With all this discussion has anyone thought that if the movie had followed the correct (or book) timeline of things movie Peter would not have been so bad? Peter was never supposed to meet Caspian until after he saw Aslan infront of the How. The girls never really met Caspian until after the battle was over. The Pevensies didn't get to Aslan's how until over half way through the book. Nickabrick said that he thought that Susans horn had failed so they should try another power. This is where the hag and werewolf come in to call up the Witch again and Peter, Edmund and Trumpkin stop them.

Also the book tells us that Caspian liked Peter form the moment they met! And again one of the first words Peter says to Caspian are "I haven't come to take your place, you know, but to put you into it" Peter always called Caspain "King" not a demeaning "prince" infact Lewis never call's him "Prince" after Cornilius helps Caspian leave the castle.

If the movie makers had followed the timeline that Lewis wrote then there would not have been the conflict between Peter and Caspian, the romance between Susan and Caspian, and Peter's mistake of the Castle raid. The parts of the movie I didn't like at all.

But hey, this is just what I think.

 

[Sir Tom the Dragon Knight]

With all this discussion has anyone thought that if the movie had followed the correct (or book) timeline of things movie Peter would not have been so bad? Peter was never supposed to meet Caspian until after he saw Aslan infront of the How. The girls never really met Caspian until after the battle was over. The Pevensies didn't get to Aslan's how until over half way through the book. Nickabrick said that he thought that Susans horn had failed so they should try another power. This is where the hag and werewolf come in to call up the Witch again and Peter, Edmund and Trumpkin stop them.

Also the book tells us that Caspian liked Peter form the moment they met! And again one of the first words Peter says to Caspian are "I haven't come to take your place, you know, but to put you into it" Peter always called Caspain "King" not a demeaning "prince" infact Lewis never call's him "Prince" after Cornilius helps Caspian leave the castle.

If the movie makers had followed the timeline that Lewis wrote then there would not have been the conflict between Peter and Caspian, the romance between Susan and Caspian, and Peter's mistake of the Castle raid. The parts of the movie I didn't like at all.

But hey, this is just what I think.

Quite a good point! You're right, things would have been much different if the time line had happened as it did in the book.

 

[MrBob]

"The Lone Islands remained in Narnian hands under the rule of its governors right down to Caspians time so, if Gumpas and Co are any indication of the quality of the people running Narnia at the time of the invasion then is it any surprise Aslan didn`t help?"

Asbel, I don't know if the slave trade was going on so soon after the Telmarines came in or the Pevensies left. It seems to have been a new endeavor to raise money in VotDT (new as in the past year or so). Also, I don't get the idea that Aslan would abandon them just because of what is going on in another part of the Narnian world.

"With all this discussion has anyone thought that if the movie had followed the correct (or book) timeline of things movie Peter would not have been so bad?"

This is exactly why it is bad to mess with the story. Characters can get messed up in the interim. Because they decided to have Peter only meet up with Aslan after the battles were over, it messed up the character or Peter, making him worse for the wait. Caspian, because the fate of Narnia now rests on Peter who hadn't yet met Aslan, gets into arguments with him.

Also, the duel turns from stalling while Aslan awakens Narnia into stalling while Lucy finds Aslan. In the first, he has confidence that all will be well. In the second, he has concerns that his youngest (and favorite ) sister has to succeed or all is lost.

MrBob

 

[AsbelMctalisker]

Mr Bob, I was thinking more in book terms here and more generally, though even if the green mist was a relatively recent phenomenon the slave trade and the payoffs from the slavers, pirates, corrupt merchants and others probably was going on long before that.
I can`t help but remember how the BBC version showed the general state of the governors guard, effectively the Lone Island army.
If Gumpas was typical of all the Lone Island governors back to the invasion then I think its a good indication that the whole Narnian state, not just the Lone Islands was at that time extremely corrupt, taking payoffs and not looking to its own defence.

I think you have nailed it about the changes, while in the book Peter is shown to have some minor leadership issues which are resolved quite quickly with the appearence of Aslan, remember the line "I`m so glad. And am so sorry. I`ve been leading them wrong ever since we started and especially yesterday morning." (Referring to what happened at the gorge.)
What happens is that in the film Peter goes in to the middle section of the story with those issues unresolved and he`s having to make key decisions about Narnia while trying to deal with them!

 

[Sir Tom the Dragon Knight]

All this about how the change of order caused such a different view of Peter is quite eye-opening. Seeing it this way, Book Peter and Movie Peter look a lot more like the same person, just shown at different points in time with slightly different circumstances.

 

[MrBob]

"I was thinking more in book terms here and more generally, though even if the green mist was a relatively recent phenomenon the slave trade and the payoffs from the slavers, pirates, corrupt merchants and others probably was going on long before that."

Asbel, in the book, Gumpas tells Caspian that their "present burst of prosperity depends on it."

"What happens is that in the film Peter goes in to the middle section of the story with those issues unresolved and he`s having to make key decisions about Narnia while trying to deal with them!"

And unfortunaltely, they increased those issues a bit much. So they made him worse than he was in the book and kept him that way for longer than the book.

MrBob

 

[inkspot]

Wow, I missed so much while I was offline last week! I can't answer everything, but I will answer a few things.

I watched Prince Caspian today, and was shocked that anyone could think that Peter was being humble at the end. He had a pouty attitude, and sounded very complaining and sarcastic when he said, "After all, I'm not needed here anymore." I wanted very much to shake him and scream in his face.

I'm shocked that anyone could delute themselves into believing something so opposite of what could clearly be seen.

Surprisingly, I find that anyone who sees a "repentant" Peter is deluding themselves, so I guess we should not generalize about what can or can't be "clearly" seen.

There is this scene between Peter and Lucy when Lucy tells Peter, "Have you forgotten who really defeated the White Witch, Peter?" and Peter says, "We can't keep waiting for Aslan." I don't think Peter really had faith in Aslan in the movies. It's completely different from in the book. In the book, he doesn't believe Lucy when she says she saw Aslan. But in the book, they have already met Aslan before they meet up with Caspian.

Right, I am agreeing with Kat here. The film made Peter appear to have no faith in Aslan and a determination to do things on his own.

Believe me, I would very much like to see Peter's supposed repentance at the end. But it isn't there. Yes, he is behaving better than he was before, I won't deny that. But his response was- never mind. Why would I say anything when I know that everyone will mock me for being inable to see repentance in pouty behavior?

But we will obviously never agree on the rest of it, so you can stop acting like the people I agree with and I are total idiots for seeing what was meant to be seen, and seeing the good aspect of that side of the movie.

Right, nobody is a total idiot for thinking one way or another; it's just that everyone's definition for what is acceptable, or good, behavior for a king is different. By the book standards, Peter's behavior was completely unacceptable in the film. By 21st Century teen standards, his behavior was, well, if not acceptable, at least to be expected.

I think the real issue here is that you just don't understand how boys normally show their emotions. What you're seeing as "pouty" is actually how a boy expresses regret and that he is sad about leaving something behind.

No, actually, that is not how a boy expresses regret, by pouting and being sarcastic. That is how a boy pretends to be showing remorse when he really still feels he's been in the right and doesn't want anyone to miss that fact, although he can't come out and say it. At least, this is how I see Peter's behavior. Others may see it differently, but I don't think the filmmakers even intended for this to be taken as "remorse."

 

[~Lava~]

Queen Wylla, believe it or not I used to defend the changes made to Peter based on those grounds. They change the plotline so Peter never met Aslan. However, at that time i had only watched the movie once and so I hadn't really had a chance to break it down scene by scene in my mind. To be honest yes, if Aslan had met Peter before they met Caspian things may have been different. He probably woud not have come off as faithless and he may have had attitude adjustments but I am not sure everything would be fixed. I severely doubt that just because they followed the timeline Caspian and Peter would not have had their hormonal issues and not bumped heads. Perhaps Susaspian would not have happened but even if Susan had stayed with Aslan, I honestly think they would have tried to sneak some of it in.

Keeping it in order was not in the screenwriters' interests though because they were trying to "appeal to a broader audience." They totally botched their attempt and narrowed the audience it appealed to even further to the teen and tween non-book purists and those who were willing to be ambivalent.

Inky, I again agree with you whole-heartedly. Especially about the last, I may be a girl though I really only exhibit the biological differences but I have spent my life being more comfortable pal-ing around with boys. I have never found that they show pouty behavior when they regret what they do. They may not always apologize but generally they make light of it if they discuss it at all.

 

[~Queen~Wylla~]

All this about how the change of order caused such a different view of Peter is quite eye-opening. Seeing it this way, Book Peter and Movie Peter look a lot more like the same person, just shown at different points in time with slightly different circumstances.

Here is where my Stargate (SciFi) geekyness comes out. The PC movie makes me think of an aternate reallity. One small thing is changed and the rest of the story changes (same main plot different way to get to it). That might be a way to help people like the movie more but I wish they had kept inline with the book more. As I have said before, it is not how Lewis wrote the Character of Peter.

 

[moonspinner]

Here is where my Stargate (SciFi) geekyness comes out. The PC movie makes me think of an aternate reallity. One small thing is changed and the rest of the story changes (same main plot different way to get to it). That might be a way to help people like the movie more but I wish they had kept inline with the book more. As I have said before, it is not how Lewis wrote the Character of Peter.

Not one small change, mind. Many big changes: Peter being a jerk; the children not meeting Aslan before meeting up with Caspian; removing Bacchus and having the climax be another big battle (LWW pt.2, LOTR redux) instead of the Great Romp which was something very unique and original. Tangentially, has anyone noticed that the climax of the Narnia books are very different (LWW was the battle; PC was the romp; VDT was the journey at the far east; SC was the fight with the Witch; MN was the quest for the apple; LB - the end of Narnia). The filmmakers are trying too hard to make these stories fit into some sort of generic fantasy film cookie cutter mold and are forgetting that it is the fact that Narnia is not a generic fantasy cookie that has made it so enduring.

 

[Pardine]

As I've always said:
The Narnia books felt magical to me.

The movies?

Lion, Witch, and the Wardrobe felt magical. I was entranced. To be fair , a lot of things can have that effect on me.

Prince Caspian felt like just another Disney movie. I don't know why they felt they needed to compete, or fit in, or whatever.. but it just didn't pull me like the first one did.

And, coincidentally, the level towards which the movies were faithful to the books is about the same as the level to which I liked them. Hmm.

MoviePeter was a jerk. This was to satisfy some "brother-vs-rival-boyfriend-of-sister-teenage-angst-everyone-is-special" mentality that was NOT PRESENT in post world war II england.

IMHO, the movie doesn't count.

 

[~Queen~Wylla~]

Not one small change, mind. Many big changes: Peter being a jerk; the children not meeting Aslan before meeting up with Caspian; removing Bacchus and having the climax be another big battle (LWW pt.2, LOTR redux) instead of the Great Romp which was something very unique and original. Tangentially, has anyone noticed that the climax of the Narnia books are very different (LWW was the battle; PC was the romp; VDT was the journey at the far east; SC was the fight with the Witch; MN was the quest for the apple; LB - the end of Narnia). The filmmakers are trying too hard to make these stories fit into some sort of generic fantasy film cookie cutter mold and are forgetting that it is the fact that Narnia is not a generic fantasy cookie that has made it so enduring.

I was thinking more of Peter meeting Caspian before he saw Aslan since most of what happened before Peter and Caspian meet in the movie was the same as the book besides Peter whining while still in England.

Very good point about the climax stuff! So true! They think that to be exciting it has to be a battle.

 

[AsbelMctalisker]

Try Caspian blowing Queen Susan`s Horn at a much earlier point in the plot than when it was originally.
Thats the major point of divergence from the book story from which all the other changes radiate.