You know its easy to criticize movie Peter when watching the film but...

[moonspinner]

Yes, we are all sinful and we should never judge someone. But first, as the Bible says, “His grace is sufficient for us.” We should not say ‘we are sinful’, fold our hands and not try to do better we can. Secondly, we should not judge people, but we are supposed to – we are obligated to judge people’s actions. It’s right there in the Bible where Jesus tells us how to correct a brother who has sinned against us.

Lastly, this is a story! And movie!Peter is not book!Peter. Trying to justify/defend movie!Peter as if he were a living, three-dimensional character is redundant. What we should be analyzing is the choices that the script writers deliberately made that created the character that we saw on the screen; the reasons why the writers veered so sharply from the character that Lewis created; and what that means for us as Christians when one of our literary icons is distorted by secular media.

 

[inkspot]

Yes, we are all sinful and we should never judge someone. But first, as the Bible says, “His grace is sufficient for us.” We should not say ‘we are sinful’, fold our hands and not try to do better we can. Secondly, we should not judge people, but we are supposed to – we are obligated to judge people’s actions. It’s right there in the Bible where Jesus tells us how to correct a brother who has sinned against us.

Lastly, this is a story! And movie!Peter is not book!Peter. Trying to justify/defend movie!Peter as if he were a living, three-dimensional character is redundant. What we should be analyzing is the choices that the script writers deliberately made that created the character that we saw on the screen; the reasons why the writers veered so sharply from the character that Lewis created; and what that means for us as Christians when one of our literary icons is distorted by secular media.

Right, exactly, I agree with all your points.

No one here is saying, "I would have done things differently that raggedy old Peter!"

We are saying:

* Peter in the book would have done things (and did do things) far different than Peter in the film did

* Peter in the book better represented CSL's ideas of chivalry and leadership -- he was a good leader, showed humility, took responsibility, and behaved graciously which are things a "good king" does, according to CSL's classicist leanings

* Peter in the film behaved like a more-or-less normal 21st Century teenager rather than like the once-and-future king that he was in the book

No one is saying we could have done a better job, and no one is saying we must hate movie Peter! He's just a fictional character. What we're calling attention to is how he differed from CSL's vision and portrayal of Peter, and how that hurt the themes of the book and hurt the film.

It's certainly not personal at all.

 

[Soldier of Aslan]

Right, exactly, I agree with all your points.

No one here is saying, "I would have done things differently that raggedy old Peter!"

We are saying:

* Peter in the book would have done things (and did do things) far different than Peter in the film did

* Peter in the book better represented CSL's ideas of chivalry and leadership -- he was a good leader, showed humility, took responsibility, and behaved graciously which are things a "good king" does, according to CSL's classicist leanings

* Peter in the film behaved like a more-or-less normal 21st Century teenager rather than like the once-and-future king that he was in the book

No one is saying we could have done a better job, and no one is saying we must hate movie Peter! He's just a fictional character. What we're calling attention to is how he differed from CSL's vision and portrayal of Peter, and how that hurt the themes of the book and hurt the film.

It's certainly not personal at all.

Inkspot, I love how you update the key arguments/ ideas! It helps me catch up with the thread. It seems to have calmed down some, It turned into quite a bit of a caucus race earlier.

 

[inkspot]

Inkspot, I love how you update the key arguments/ ideas! It helps me catch up with the thread. It seems to have calmed down some, It turned into quite a bit of a caucus race earlier.

Awww, thanks. That was very sweet of you.

You know the Pevensies have been my friends since I was a child, and so I guess I do think of them as "real" in a way, so it's sad to see them portrayed in a way I don't think is their "real" character.

I imagine people with no attachment to the book, who see Movie Peter as a hero and whatnot, must feel like book purists are dog-piling on someone they think of as good, and "real."

No wonder people can lose sight of the fact that Peter is a character and none of this stuff is meant to be taken personally.

 

[tirian_son_of_erlian]

I love Peter's characterization in the books. I felt his character was modernized in the movies, especially in "Prince Caspian," but even at a few places here and there in "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe." For me it definitely took away a lot of the enjoyment I had for someone I considered noble and a natural, humble leader.

 

[QueenLucyTheValient]

Right, exactly, I agree with all your points.

No one here is saying, "I would have done things differently that raggedy old Peter!"

We are saying:

* Peter in the book would have done things (and did do things) far different than Peter in the film did

* Peter in the book better represented CSL's ideas of chivalry and leadership -- he was a good leader, showed humility, took responsibility, and behaved graciously which are things a "good king" does, according to CSL's classicist leanings

* Peter in the film behaved like a more-or-less normal 21st Century teenager rather than like the once-and-future king that he was in the book

No one is saying we could have done a better job, and no one is saying we must hate movie Peter! He's just a fictional character. What we're calling attention to is how he differed from CSL's vision and portrayal of Peter, and how that hurt the themes of the book and hurt the film.

It's certainly not personal at all.

I agree that the changes changed the whole theme of the movie, to a great extent, actually. But I do think that bookpeter was not gone (note especially what I said in my last post). BookPeter was still there, and it was very obvious to me, wether or not it was to you. I shall give you some examples of bookpeter in the movie.
1)The Duel. Again, I shall bring up that bookpeter was obvious in the Duel scene. His true nature was able to shine in that part, showing that he cared so much about Narnia, and so little about himself, that he was willing to sacrifice himself to save Narnia. That is not the Peter you are all trying to get me to see. That is BookPeter, no mistake.
2) After the White Witch scene. I feel that after this scene, he really started to show the change that bookpeter already had went through, the change that moviepeter should have already gone through but did not. He truely believed that Aslan was going to come to the rescue. Note that he never lost his faith in Aslan, but he just did not believe that Aslan was going to come swooping in to save them like he did last time. Not even Lucy believed that. "Why could'nt you have come roaring in and save us like last time?" she asks.
3) After the battle. He bows to Aslan. He does not say much, and even that small thing shows me his humility. He is very humble in front of Aslan, and when he is told that he will never come back to Narnia again and that it was time for him to leave, he takes that with dignity and humility. He willingly gives Caspian his sword, is the one to say that they are the ones who have to go(note that Susan could have said something, but did not), and when back in England even, shows the change. I mean, that part back in England was not a long scene, but it was long enough..

I probably could think of more, but I have to watch the movie and make a list of that sometime really soon, like, tomorrowish.

 

[inkspot]

Yah, we just see things differently. I see a defiant Peter to the end who merely bows to Aslan because he has to, who is cavalier about not coming back, and who is sarcastic when he gives his sword and tells Caspian they're not needed there anymore. I guess it is all in your perception, and I perceive movie Peter differently than others do.

 

[~Lava~]

Not all others, Inky.

QLtV, I understand that all people are sinners but I can honestly say that I have been placed in a similar situation (though less serious in that it did not involve deaths) were I was pitted against someone else; I was accused of breaking a serious rule at work and the person was standing there accusing me to my face in front of everyone and my boss. Instead of lashing out at the person and insulting them and pointing my finger back at them, I took a more mature route that cleared me of any wrongdoing. My point is that the way Peter acted in that particular scene was the grossest exhibition of immaturity in the movie. We know that Peter had already lived a lifetime as a man and therefore should still retain the maturity he had gained through it. BookPeter certainly did and MoviePeter certainly did not retain it.

Turning around and walking away after one has had the last word and made a biting comment is not a sign of maturity.

 

[QueenLucyTheValient]

Not all others, Inky.

QLtV, I understand that all people are sinners but I can honestly say that I have been placed in a similar situation (though less serious in that it did not involve deaths) were I was pitted against someone else; I was accused of breaking a serious rule at work and the person was standing there accusing me to my face in front of everyone and my boss. Instead of lashing out at the person and insulting them and pointing my finger back at them, I took a more mature route that cleared me of any wrongdoing. My point is that the way Peter acted in that particular scene was the grossest exhibition of immaturity in the movie. We know that Peter had already lived a lifetime as a man and therefore should still retain the maturity he had gained through it. BookPeter certainly did and MoviePeter certainly did not retain it.

Turning around and walking away after one has had the last word and made a biting comment is not a sign of maturity.

Okay, ignoring that scene, which I admit was sort of stupid, but if you think about it, he was probably sad, angry with Miraz, tired, and so forth. I am not saying that that justifies what he said. I know that I have done things like that when I have been tired, angry, and saddened, so I understand how he could have said something like he did. I probably would have reacted the same way!!! I have a bit of a temper at times, especially when tired, and I can really relate to moviepeter, which is probably why I see bookpeter when others do not... I will admit, though, that I would rather have someone to look up to than someone to relate to, but a lot of people today would rather the opposite...

But, honestly people, look at my last post!!!!

I agree that the changes changed the whole theme of the movie, to a great extent, actually. But I do think that bookpeter was not gone (note especially what I said in my last post). BookPeter was still there, and it was very obvious to me, wether or not it was to you. I shall give you some examples of bookpeter in the movie.
1)The Duel. Again, I shall bring up that bookpeter was obvious in the Duel scene. His true nature was able to shine in that part, showing that he cared so much about Narnia, and so little about himself, that he was willing to sacrifice himself to save Narnia. That is not the Peter you are all trying to get me to see. That is BookPeter, no mistake.
2) After the White Witch scene. I feel that after this scene, he really started to show the change that bookpeter already had went through, the change that moviepeter should have already gone through but did not. He truely believed that Aslan was going to come to the rescue. Note that he never lost his faith in Aslan, but he just did not believe that Aslan was going to come swooping in to save them like he did last time. Not even Lucy believed that. "Why could'nt you have come roaring in and save us like last time?" she asks.
3) After the battle. He bows to Aslan. He does not say much, and even that small thing shows me his humility. He is very humble in front of Aslan, and when he is told that he will never come back to Narnia again and that it was time for him to leave, he takes that with dignity and humility. He willingly gives Caspian his sword, is the one to say that they are the ones who have to go(note that Susan could have said something, but did not), and when back in England even, shows the change. I mean, that part back in England was not a long scene, but it was long enough..

 

[MrBob]

"ya'll say that you would have acted so much better than Peter did if you were in his place"

QueenLucy, the issue is not what we would do in his place but what an experienced person had done in his place. Remember, Peter had been a king for 30 or so years. Would you expect an estabished king who ruled for so long while keeping the peace in his country to act in this way?

MrBob

 

[AsbelMctalisker]

"ya'll say that you would have acted so much better than Peter did if you were in his place"

QueenLucy, the issue is not what we would do in his place but what an experienced person had done in his place. Remember, Peter had been a king for 30 or so years. Would you expect an estabished king who ruled for so long while keeping the peace in his country to act in this way?

MrBob

I dont think any of us are in a position to judge unless we have some `real world` combat experience.
I keep thinking `Battlefield Stress` here.

 

[inkspot]

But Peter is not a real boy who has been through a battle. He is a fictional person, created by CSL, who wrote his character in a book in which Peter behaved like a good leader and good king, with small lapses for which he was apologetic. This has nothing to do with "battle stress" or whether he was "justified" in his poor behavior.

In my mind it has to do with preserving the themes of the book as CSL wrote them, and making Film Peter into a boy afflicted with "battle stress" and 21st Century teenaged angst flew in the face of what CSL intended and showed us in the books.

(And of course, a good leader doesn't succumb to "battle stress" by biting at his allies, anyway. A weak leader will, of course, which is what we can say about Film Peter.)

QLtV, I understand you are saying you could see Book Peter in the film, in those instances you mention, and perhaps, in the duel, you are right. But in all other instances, I don't see it. And as I say, it is a matter of perception. You perceive he is there, but I perceive he is almost wholly absent. And as you say yourself, that changes the themes of the book substantially.

 

[MrBob]

"I dont think any of us are in a position to judge unless we have some `real world` combat experience."

If we take it even further, Asbel, only war veterans would be able to write war stories. We know he was known as Peter the Magnificent for keeping Narnia peaceful. We know he was a good war king. His first battle in Narnia when he returns comes out terrible and he doesn't react to it in a proper, kingly way.

MrBob

 

[~Queen~Wylla~]

In my mind it has to do with preserving the themes of the book as CSL wrote them, and making Film Peter into a boy afflicted with "battle stress" and 21st Century teenaged angst flew in the face of what CSL intended and showed us in the books.

Exactly! This is what I have said a couple times (in a different way). That is why I don't like movie Peter! They didn't stay true to the Character that Lewis wrote. They did the same kind of thing (to a lesser extent) with Susan in LWW. I don't remember her arguing or blaming Peter for what happens in the book but they do that in the movie. I don't remember hardly any arguing between the Pevensies besides with Edmund in the LWW book. Yet the movie has them all fighting and arguing with each other for the first part of the movie. Even after Aslan kills the Witch Susan's voice when she said "Where's Edmund", to me, sounded almost accusing as though it was Peter's falt again. Again that is just what I got from it.

 

[inkspot]

Susan was kind of a stick in the mud in LWW -- she didn't want to go exploring when they first got into Narnia, and she wanted to turn back as soon as they found Tumnus had been arrested, and at the end when they are chasing the white stag, she is the one who asks to be excused from following him into the forest at the lamp post. She hangs back, but no, I didn't notice her blaming Peter. Of course when they think Lucy is mad, she does act a bit like a mother, but that is natural in their circumstances.

So yah, adding that heightened tension did veer off a bit from the LWW book, but not to the extent that changing Peter's character pulled PC film away from the book themes.

 

[~Queen~Wylla~]

Right I know she was reluctant to go explore but it seamed to be exagerated alittle (not as much as Peter in PC).
I know that when movies are made based on books there will be changes but most of the movie addaptions I have seen (that I can think of right now) they keep the persoanlity character the same... until PC.

 

[~Lava~]

They established a shift from the characters of the books in LWW. And in my opinion, that shift served as a springboard into the changes they made in PC. I will say this though, part of the shift occured because they sped up when Beaver met the kids for movie-time purposes. There was no following a bird far away from Tumnus' house so that in the book, by the time they had met Mr. Beaver they knew that there was no way they could get back on their own; they had accepted the adventure.

Susan was a touch more whiny and standoff-ish in LWW. They also established a pattern of down-grading Aslan and on top of this, they had Aslan give them titles that they earned in their reign. If you have a God-given title, you are more likely to decide that you are all-that and a bag of chips. Peter decided that he had to be Magnificent because after all Aslan gave him the title. LWW went a long way in establishing the changes that they made in PC.

 

[moonspinner]

They also established a pattern of down-grading Aslan and on top of this, they had Aslan give them titles that they earned in their reign. If you have a God-given title, you are more likely to decide that you are all-that and a bag of chips.

That makes a lot of sense! Let me be very honest now. I am... not a fan of the LWW movie. It is heads and shoulders better than the movies that came after and I retroactively appreciate the first movie now but I still have issues with the way the story was re-interpreted in the film (turning it into another generic Joseph Campbell Hero's Journey for Peter, and downgrading Aslan to an Obi-Wan/Dumbledore character). I know I'm in the minority here so I hardly ever talk about it.

 

[MissReepicheep]

That makes a lot of sense! Let me be very honest now. I am... not a fan of the LWW movie. It is heads and shoulders better than the movies that came after and I retroactively appreciate the first movie now but I still have issues with the way the story was re-interpreted in the film (turning it into another generic Joseph Campbell Hero's Journey for Peter, and downgrading Aslan to an Obi-Wan/Dumbledore character). I know I'm in the minority here so I hardly ever talk about it.

I don't really agree with you, but I definitely get what you mean by downgrading Aslan to an Obi-Wan/Dumbledore character. I wasn't excessively bothered by it, but I see that it is there.

 

[~Queen~Wylla~]

Good point Moonspinner.

I remember watching a behind the scenes thing for LWW and Adamson said something about making the movies the way HE imagined they would be, which would be fine as long as he stayed true to the book. But he changed PC so much, that statement bothers me. I thought LWW was good I don't remember much in the way of deviation from the book besides not mentioning the Emperor-beyond-the-Sea. (They haven't mentioned that in any of the movies so far). And making all the siblings argue more than they did in the book. I'm sure there are other small things that I can't remember right now.