Magician's Nephew Speculation

[daedhel]

I don't think they can get away with watering down the creationism, but I have to differ on the worst movie adaptation. Have you seen the Abomination Ella Enchanted? I would personally (yes ME the person always worrying about film preservation) would burn the master Negatives. Eragon is close, very close, but Ella beats it by a hair.

I'm afraid I haven't read Ella Enchanted, so I'll just have to take your word for it.

And I agree with you that they can't get away with watering down the creationism, but I think it does present a bit of a disadvantage for the MN movie.

 

[Aravis Kenobi]

I

And I agree with you that they can't get away with watering down the creationism, but I think it does present a bit of a disadvantage for the MN movie.

This brings to mind something that I doubt many have thought about. Has anyone realized that TMN probably has some of the most blatant references to Christianity aside from LWW and TLB? We've always discussed how knotty a problem it might be should they decide to make TLB, but the elements of TMN's Creator-based story poses an even bigger problem. LWW did fantastic, no doubt; regardless of the Christian elements. But that was 2005. This is 2011, an age where even more political correctness and fear to be politcally incorrect reigns. Yes, VDT had the End of the World scene. But...the reference to Jesus wasn't a huge deal. Why?

Look at what's being taught in our schools. Even some "Christians" hold with an idea of evolution. I see a really big issue with TMN, and if they stick true to the book....I think we can say an official goodbye to the series.

 

[TheWoodBetweenTheWorlds]

This brings to mind something that I doubt many have thought about. Has anyone realized that TMN probably has some of the most blatant references to Christianity aside from LWW and TLB? We've always discussed how knotty a problem it might be should they decide to make TLB, but the elements of TMN's Creator-based story poses an even bigger problem. LWW did fantastic, no doubt; regardless of the Christian elements. But that was 2005. This is 2011, an age where even more political correctness and fear to be politcally incorrect reigns. Yes, VDT had the End of the World scene. But...the reference to Jesus wasn't a huge deal. Why?

Look at what's being taught in our schools. Even some "Christians" hold with an idea of evolution. I see a really big issue with TMN, and if they stick true to the book....I think we can say an official goodbye to the series.

Unfortunately I think you are right.

 

[Soldier of Aslan]

This brings to mind something that I doubt many have thought about. Has anyone realized that TMN probably has some of the most blatant references to Christianity aside from LWW and TLB? We've always discussed how knotty a problem it might be should they decide to make TLB, but the elements of TMN's Creator-based story poses an even bigger problem. LWW did fantastic, no doubt; regardless of the Christian elements. But that was 2005. This is 2011, an age where even more political correctness and fear to be politcally incorrect reigns. Yes, VDT had the End of the World scene. But...the reference to Jesus wasn't a huge deal. Why?

Look at what's being taught in our schools. Even some "Christians" hold with an idea of evolution. I see a really big issue with TMN, and if they stick true to the book....I think we can say an official goodbye to the series.

I think your over thinking here. lets look at some obvious proof at the Narnia films connection to Christianity, besides the source material:

1. LWW (and the others to a lesser extent) were marketed the heck out of churches and christian stores, (http://archive.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?sduid=0&t=762929 , Narniafaith.com ,http://www.disney.co.uk/DisneyMovies/narnia/resources/ ,http://www.praize.com/Narnia/resources.html).

2. People who review the films, are pretty snippy about religious undertones.

3. It seems to be general knowledge that Aslan is a representation of Christ and that the Narnia stories could be seen as a allegory. That's why the media always beat that old quote about lewis saying it was not an allegory (they always leave out the end of the quote to twist his words).

4. those who don't know/don't care will just see how Narnia is created, and may not even make connections to the creationism. Remember the Bible is well know by title, but seldom read by the general public.

5. Fox knows what they were getting into when they picked up from Disney. Disney has a slight issue with being PC (politically correct), and that shows in PC. Fox on the other hand is more conservative, and has their own Christian movie label FoxFaith. They were not blind to the Christian audience. And hopefully unlike Disney, they will learn to use it , not shun it.

 

[daedhel]

Unfortunately I think you are right.

And now I've gone and made everyone worried... *sighs*

Anywho, I've actually been more worried about the Christianity aspects of MN than with the TLB, probably because I haven't thought that far ahead. Even so, TLB I don't think will be as much of a problem because pretty much everyone is speculating about the end of the world nowadays. But creation? That's a completely different thing. And the problem is, it's such an integral part of the story that it simply can't be watered down, but so many will be (unfortunately) feel pretty much insulted at the inclusion. It's quite literally between a rock and a hard place. Which sucks.

And another thing that can be detrimental to MN, is the fact that so many Christian families ban going to movie theaters and such. And with MN, I think we're going to need all the help we can get.

 

[Aravis Kenobi]

I don't agree. If Fox were so much more "conservative" than Disney, and if, as you've said elsewhere, they had the ability to make VDT reflect more of the Christian themes...why wasn't it done? Case in point: Eustace's undragoning. That by itself had enough Christian elements in it to do the film justice. But they glossed over it. They dropped the ball on it, and it'll happen again. Dispute me if you want (and you will because you always do), but they will not make this film or any other film correctly with the right amount of Christian elements. if they are going to water it down, and I have a feeling that they will, it's not worth supporting.

Also...didn't I mention LWW? I'm very well aware of the marketing surrounding LWW, but that was 6 years ago, and the resistance to Christianity in mainstream culture has only gotten worse.

 

[Soldier of Aslan]

I don't agree. If Fox were so much more "conservative" than Disney, and if, as you've said elsewhere, they had the ability to make VDT reflect more of the Christian themes...why wasn't it done? Case in point: Eustace's undragoning. That by itself had enough Christian elements in it to do the film justice. But they glossed over it. They dropped the ball on it, and it'll happen again. Dispute me if you want (and you will because you always do), but they will not make this film or any other film correctly with the right amount of Christian elements. if they are going to water it down, and I have a feeling that they will, it's not worth supporting.

You have to remember that Disney did most (if not all) of the preproduction work. Fox was on a rushed schedule and tinkered with it, but probably didn't re-write the complete script , as they were so behind. VDT is a red-headed step child of both Disney and Fox. That's why Fox can't be held completely for how VDT turned out. VDT was formed at Disney, which was planning to make the series more secular anyway, but Fox gave VDT birth. VDT is tainted with the pre-production from Disney. Persionally I think VDT's undragoning was very spiritual in it's self. I wept. Yes, the scene in the book would have been better, but I think Fox and Walden pulled VDT out of Disney's rubish pile pretty well. think what would have happened if Disney would have kept the series? I doubt they would have made it any more religious than PC. If Disney made VDT I bet Eustace would have Undragoned himself.

Look at it this way. If me and you are in the kitchen and I'm baking cookies for a party. But instead of following the recipe I decide to do it my own way, get frustrated and hand off the mess to you. The party's in half an hour and there is no time to make new cookie dough, so you try to salvage my mess. The cookies turn out ok. They are in no way as good as if the recipe was followed, but still tasty. It would be unfair of your guest to say you couldn't bake if you were just trying to salvage my work. It would make more sense to judge your baking when your the one making cookies to start with.

Now do you get what I'm saying?
I think if we are worried about how the 'cookies' are going to be baked (which we all are) then I suggest someone start a petition to Fox to stay in line to the spiritual side of Narnia. Arguing endlessly on a forum fixes nothing and wastes my tea. If Petitions can get Betty White on SNL and get several additional season of certain tv shows, I'm sure fox would pay attention to a thousand or so signatures. I'd be the first to sign if it were created.
Rant over.

EDIT: forgot the last bit of your post. Yes it's been 6 years, but I think it's still possible. Don't we have a Higher being that Aslan Represents on our side *elbow nudges*

 

[Demos]

You know, I don't think the creation of Narnia in the Magician's nephew is necessarily a "Christian" theme, specifically (not compared to the resurrection of Aslan in LWW, for instance!). There are lots and lots of creation stories from all kinds of cultures and traditions.

Years later, when I read Tolkien's "Silmarillion" I realized how much Lewis must have been inspired by Tolkien's own creation story, with the whole concept of singing a world into existence. In fact, I think MN is very much inspired by Tolkien (Atlantis aka Numinor, Jadis' conflict with her sister and the deplorable word, etc).

 

[tirian_son_of_erlian]

Animals in pairs.

Forbidden fruit.

 

[Soldier of Aslan]

Animals in pairs.

Forbidden fruit.

trees of life
the phrases 'son of Adam' and 'daughter of Eve'
secret garden
Jadis's pointless attack and banishment
Jadis playing the temptress
Apples

 

[TheWoodBetweenTheWorlds]

You know, I don't think the creation of Narnia in the Magician's nephew is necessarily a "Christian" theme, specifically (not compared to the resurrection of Aslan in LWW, for instance!). There are lots and lots of creation stories from all kinds of cultures and traditions.

Years later, when I read Tolkien's "Silmarillion" I realized how much Lewis must have been inspired by Tolkien's own creation story, with the whole concept of singing a world into existence. In fact, I think MN is very much inspired by Tolkien (Atlantis aka Numinor, Jadis' conflict with her sister and the deplorable word, etc).

The fact that and I quote "All the things were coming, as she said 'Out of the Lion's head'" and the examples others have given are almost perfectly parallel to the actual creation as recorded in the Bible.

 

[daedhel]

The fact that and I quote "All the things were coming, as she said 'Out of the Lion's head'" and the examples others have given are almost perfectly parallel to the actual creation as recorded in the Bible.

Mmhmm. While there are other depictions of creation out there, the one in MN, is very, VERY close to actual creation. Or at least, enough to cause issues with non-Christians.

 

[Soldier of Aslan]

Mmhmm. While there are other depictions of creation out there, the one in MN, is very, VERY close to actual creation. Or at least, enough to cause issues with non-Christians.

Assuming they've ever picked up a Bible. I think the only images non-christians are familiar with are Adam & Eve naked with fig leaves, the tree of life, the serpent and a apple of discord. That's an if, in it's self. I don't know how many fools I've heard say they don't believe the Bible when they have no idea what's in it. According to a poll I read 80% of high school senior believe Sodom & Gemoriah (sp?) were married.

 

[Demos]

Good points, above.

In studying the book of Genesis, I've often been intrigued by similarities with the creation stories of other cultures. For this reason, I viewed the beautiful narrative in MN as drawing from similar sources and traditions as Genesis, rather than a point-by-point reworking of the story.

Interestingly, although some popular images such as animals in pairs or apples are associated with Genesis, I don't think specific reference exists to either of them. (Animals are created, but I don't think it's explicitly stated they're created in pairs, as in some Native American legends. And the "apple" interpretation of the forbidden fruit is a medieval innovation, I think).

The themes of a garden and a temptor/temptress are also common to other stories, such as Mesopotamian, Sumerian, and even Greek legends. However, it's never occurred to me before now that Mr. Beaver's notion that Jadis was descended from Lilith might have had something to do with her presence and actions at the birth of Narnia.

Anyway, this is probably another example of CS Lewis working on multiple levels simultaneously. Hopefully, the depth of his storytelling ability will be successfully conveyed.

(And seriously, check out the first chapter of the Silmarillion, if you haven't read it before or looked at it recently!)

 

[Soldier of Aslan]

Good points, above.

In studying the book of Genesis, I've often been intrigued by similarities with the creation stories of other cultures. For this reason, I viewed the beautiful narrative in MN as drawing from similar sources and traditions as Genesis, rather than a point-by-point reworking of the story.

Interestingly, although some popular images such as animals in pairs or apples are associated with Genesis, I don't think specific reference exists to either of them. (Animals are created, but I don't think it's explicitly stated they're created in pairs, as in some Native American legends. And the "apple" interpretation of the forbidden fruit is a medieval innovation, I think).

The themes of a garden and a temptor/temptress are also common to other stories, such as Mesopotamian, Sumerian, and even Greek legends. However, it's never occurred to me before now that Mr. Beaver's notion that Jadis was descended from Lilith might have had something to do with her presence and actions at the birth of Narnia.

Anyway, this is probably another example of CS Lewis working on multiple levels simultaneously. Hopefully, the depth of his storytelling ability will be successfully conveyed.

(And seriously, check out the first chapter of the Silmarillion, if you haven't read it before or looked at it recently!)

I have to read LOTR first don't I? Forgive my ignorance on Tolkien's work. Yes, the apple is a medieval idea, along with the whale in jonah. The Bible says a great fish, never a whale. You also have the golden apple in the Hercules legends, as well as Greece's idea of the creation of two men who live off a ox before one give birth(!!) to a woman. People are strange -.-

 

[moonspinner]

Interestingly, although some popular images such as animals in pairs or apples are associated with Genesis, I don't think specific reference exists to either of them. (Animals are created, but I don't think it's explicitly stated they're created in pairs, as in some Native American legends. And the "apple" interpretation of the forbidden fruit is a medieval innovation, I think).

The 'pairs' concept is from the story of Noah's Ark.

Since most of popular culture tends towards secularism and atheism, there will be PC issues with the film depiction of a Supreme Being and Creation regardless of which religion the concept is associated with.

 

[Demos]

Since most of popular culture tends towards secularism and atheism, there will be PC issues with the film depiction of a Supreme Being and Creation regardless of which religion the concept is associated with.

I think anyone who takes issue with the story of creation of a fantasy world, despite which culture, tradition, or religion the story may be inspired from, would be making a fool of themselves.

The director and producers of MN (if that is indeed the next film) should stand tall and proud and labour to translate a faithful adaptation of the book to screen. LWW had the most blatant Christian undertones, and was the most commercially successful, after all.

 

[moonspinner]

I think anyone who takes issue with the story of creation of a fantasy world, despite which culture, tradition, or religion the story may be inspired from, would be making a fool of themselves.

The fact remains that secularism is here to stay and Narnia with its unapologetically Christian author and its overtly Christian undertones is a square peg in the circle of that secularism.

Which is why each adaptation of the books have increasingly distorted the story to remove the Christian themes.

The director and producers of MN (if that is indeed the next film) should stand tall and proud and labour to translate a faithful adaptation of the book to screen. LWW had the most blatant Christian undertones, and was the most commercially successful, after all.

If only it was that easy.

 

[mr fox]

i true agree with BK that by making TMN this is just going to make the franchise look wierd and also as the last 3 narnia films were all action movies making TMN is a prequal to LWW would confuse new viewers or people who just watch the movies.

such a shame..

i hope they dont mess it up,i liked the book..

 

[Aslan's Child_1996]

I am really looking forward to TMN! I love imagining scenes in my head before i go see the movie. I did that with VODT, but the scene i was picturing wasn't in the movie. It was the one where Caspian's dudes throw Gumpas out of his chair and the table gets thrown across the room. That would have been so cool! Oh, well. For TMN, I think there are a lot of things that will be awesome in this movie!!