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[Sir Godfrey]

I don't think in the series LOTF Luke is actually abusive. I just think the author writes the scene in a very bad way, making it sound worse than it is. I think what troubles me is that if a kid who was actually being abused read that moment, they might come away thinking what happened to them was okay, because Luke is a hero and he does it too. it just is that when I read that scene, I think of about fifty less awkward ways in which it can be written, but that story was by Denning, who seems to exist to create awkward EU moments. I wonder where the editor was on that one. They really dropped the ball...

I don't think an abusive Luke will make it to the big screens. No audience would want to see that, and I think Disney still wants to be seen as family friendly, even though Star Wars always specialized in the dysfunctional family.

I can understand that. It's a shame that today there is a trend of fallen heroes. No longer can a character be like the steadfast Aragorn or the pious King Arthur. Now it is the anti-hero that pollutes stories and makes the old conflict of good and evil impossible.

Frankly, I haven't found a good EU writer. There arn't any SW books I can even recommend to friends because they are often soap-operaesque. However, I haven't read LOTF or LOTJ, so maybe I am missing out.

 

[SunshineRose]

I can understand that. It's a shame that today there is a trend of fallen heroes. No longer can a character be like the steadfast Aragorn or the pious King Arthur. Now it is the anti-hero that pollutes stories and makes the old conflict of good and evil impossible.

Frankly, I haven't found a good EU writer. There arn't any SW books I can even recommend to friends because they are often soap-operaesque. However, I haven't read LOTF or LOTJ, so maybe I am missing out.

Yeah, I don't like the trend toward creating "heroes" with deep flaws that seriously undermine their heroism. The traditional tragic hero on whom Anakin Skywalker is modeled, when designed to fall from the beginning and whose fall because of hubris is meant to teach us the dangers of pride, I can accept, but I also appreciate the role of the traditional epic hero who becomes more virtuous as the tale unfolds on which Luke Skywalker's hero journey in the OT is based. We don't need the heroes we should be admiring to become less than admirable.

Good EU writers are very hard to find. Matthew Stover and James Luceno are probably the best that I've found. Dark Rendevous by Steward is nicely written in terms of prose and in terms of characters like Scout, but the plot takes awhile to really begin. Zahn's works normally have a plot that moves at a steady clip and are consistently written with a high degree of competence. His OC's normally are well done. The only problem is his need to glamorize his creations like Thrawn sometimes at the expense of logic. Reaves and Perry are quite good too, mainly because I find their style witty, and I like a good laugh

With LotF and LotJ, there are some good moments and a lot of periods of banality to make up for those good moments. There are episodes of questionable characterization and weak plot points. There are some exciting battles and interesting character moments thrown in. There are arcs that get a reasonably satisfying conclusion and those that are just dropped entirely. Both kind of show the weakness of long series written by different authors.

I would tend to only recommend Star Wars books to Star Wars fans. Even then, I would say that there are many books to rent from the library, skip entirely, or see if you can get online used for a dollar (plus shipping) or less. That's about what some of the EU material is actually worth, in my opinion.

 

[Sir Godfrey]

It tis a shame that there isn't a prolific writer like Tolkien who could write a series of Star Wars Books that would be held as treasures by all fans.

 

[SunshineRose]

It tis a shame that there isn't a prolific writer like Tolkien who could write a series of Star Wars Books that would be held as treasures by all fans.

Yeah, most of the SW writers seem to just be interested in making a quick dollar with a lame story that wouldn't sell if it didn't have the SW logo attached to it, and half of them can't seem to be bothered with continuity, apparently not even bothering to check simple sources like Wookiepedia, which would tell them if they were getting stuff obviously wrong. I really only keep up since I've got so many friends who are SW fans that I want to know what they're saying, and out of nostalgia for the OT.

 

[Sir Godfrey]

Yeah, most of the SW writers seem to just be interested in making a quick dollar with a lame story that wouldn't sell if it didn't have the SW logo attached to it, and half of them can't seem to be bothered with continuity, apparently not even bothering to check simple sources like Wookiepedia, which would tell them if they were getting stuff obviously wrong. I really only keep up since I've got so many friends who are SW fans that I want to know what they're saying, and out of nostalgia for the OT.

Perhaps someone out there will go against the tide and create a series. It would take a true fan to forge prose that would be true to the canon and enthrall all who read it. I understand reading the books fo nostalgic reasons. Did you ever read Heir of the Empire or Shadows of the Empire?

 

[SunshineRose]

Perhaps someone out there will go against the tide and create a series. It would take a true fan to forge prose that would be true to the canon and enthrall all who read it. I understand reading the books fo nostalgic reasons. Did you ever read Heir of the Empire or Shadows of the Empire?

It would be so awesome if the EU got an author who was a true fan of SW, respectful of canon, and able to write well. I think that the SW setting and characters and overarching plot give authors a lot of potential that so far has mostly gone unrealized.

Heir of the Empire and Shadows of the Empire were some of the first EU books I read. Probably gave me the mistaken impression that most of the EU was worth reading for more than nostalgia.

 

[Sir Godfrey]

It would be so awesome if the EU got an author who was a true fan of SW, respectful of canon, and able to write well. I think that the SW setting and characters and overarching plot give authors a lot of potential that so far has mostly gone unrealized.

Heir of the Empire and Shadows of the Empire were some of the first EU books I read. Probably gave me the mistaken impression that most of the EU was worth reading for more than nostalgia.

Would you recommend those as the first books to read to someone who is delving for the first time in the EU?

 

[SunshineRose]

Would you recommend those as the first books to read to someone who is delving for the first time in the EU?

Yeah, they are where the book EU started pretty much, so they are actually good, and they aren't written like so many EU books are--in pure reference to other EU books with the intent of selling more EU books. The EU, by and large, has started focusing entirely on marketability at the expense of any sort of quality, but once upon a time, there used to be some attempt at quality.

 

[Sir Godfrey]

Yeah, they are where the book EU started pretty much, so they are actually good, and they aren't written like so many EU books are--in pure reference to other EU books with the intent of selling more EU books. The EU, by and large, has started focusing entirely on marketability at the expense of any sort of quality, but once upon a time, there used to be some attempt at quality.

That seems to be trend not only in books, but films and video games these days. Quantity instead of quality. Amuse people with mere action sequences and soap-operaesque dialouge, instead of developing an elaborate plot, battles are relevent to the narrative, and dialouge that is witty and memorable.

I am now going to digress..

I've been a die hard Star Wars Fan for as long as I remember. I even mastered a lightsaber form called Shein Djem So (Form V). I once wore a vest like Anakin's and always had a clip on lightsaber attached to my belt. My favorite era is The Old Republic, and then the OT. I think the New Republic and New Jedi Order is interesting, however it lacks the opulence, culture, and rich history of the Old Republic and Jedi Order. The Old Republic era reminds me of the Medieval/Renaissance Period and the New Republic as the 20th and 21 Centuries.

 

[SunshineRose]

That seems to be trend not only in books, but films and video games these days. Quantity instead of quality. Amuse people with mere action sequences and soap-operaesque dialouge, instead of developing an elaborate plot, battles are relevent to the narrative, and dialouge that is witty and memorable.

I am now going to digress..

I've been a die hard Star Wars Fan for as long as I remember. I even mastered a lightsaber form called Shein Djem So (Form V). I once wore a vest like Anakin's and always had a clip on lightsaber attached to my belt. My favorite era is The Old Republic, and then the OT. I think the New Republic and New Jedi Order is interesting, however it lacks the opulence, culture, and rich history of the Old Republic and Jedi Order. The Old Republic era reminds me of the Medieval/Renaissance Period and the New Republic as the 20th and 21 Centuries.

Yeah, and the quantity over quality issue is normally especially bad whenever series are involved. The series must go on until the very last fan has given his last pitiful dime to the franchise or has given up on it in despair over the mockery to the setting and characters he once loved.

I've loved Star Wars since I was little. I was always playing Leia to my brother's Luke.

It's cool that you mastered a lightsaber form. I always thought that I would probably be best at Form III since it is the most defensive style and I'm not normally on the offensive. I'm normally the diplomat and the peacemaker

The Old Republic is an interesting era. I enjoyed seeing the Jedi at the height of their power, and how the Senate and everything operated. It was cool to see how such a grand democracy fell. The end of a great civilization almost always has the potential to be a good story.

The OT has a soft spot in my heart, because it was how I was first introduced to Star Wars. The Rebellion is an exciting time in galactic history. The conflict between the Rebels and the Imperials always feels real and important. Han, Leia, and Luke are characters it is hard not to care about, and Yoda and Obi-Wan are just awesome.

I've never been as much of a fan of the New Jedi Order as of the Old one and of the New Republic as of the Old Republic. Part of it is that I don't feel that the stories were told as well in the post-ROTJ era, and the plot points tend to be weaker. Either they are just weird involving invading alien species I don't much care about, or they are about Jacen and Jaina being kidnapped for the ninth time, or they are about family vacations and Star Peace, or else they are about something frankly unbelievable like Luke being exiled. The New Republic is my least favorite era, and I find it the least interesting, though I think that if the sequel movies did a better job exploring the fallout of the Emperor's defeat in ROTJ, the movies could be successful. There have been a lot of revolutions in the news in recent years, so I think there is a lot of potential for a fairly moving and realistic examination of how hard it can be to establish a democracy after a totalitarian regime. The New Republic era suffers not because it doesn't have the potential to be exciting, but because those in charge of telling its story tend to bungle the opportunities they are presented with

 

[Sir Godfrey]

Yeah, and the quantity over quality issue is normally especially bad whenever series are involved. The series must go on until the very last fan has given his last pitiful dime to the franchise or has given up on it in despair over the mockery to the setting and characters he once loved.

I've loved Star Wars since I was little. I was always playing Leia to my brother's Luke.

It's cool that you mastered a lightsaber form. I always thought that I would probably be best at Form III since it is the most defensive style and I'm not normally on the offensive. I'm normally the diplomat and the peacemaker

The Old Republic is an interesting era. I enjoyed seeing the Jedi at the height of their power, and how the Senate and everything operated. It was cool to see how such a grand democracy fell. The end of a great civilization almost always has the potential to be a good story.

The OT has a soft spot in my heart, because it was how I was first introduced to Star Wars. The Rebellion is an exciting time in galactic history. The conflict between the Rebels and the Imperials always feels real and important. Han, Leia, and Luke are characters it is hard not to care about, and Yoda and Obi-Wan are just awesome.

I've never been as much of a fan of the New Jedi Order as of the Old one and of the New Republic as of the Old Republic. Part of it is that I don't feel that the stories were told as well in the post-ROTJ era, and the plot points tend to be weaker. Either they are just weird involving invading alien species I don't much care about, or they are about Jacen and Jaina being kidnapped for the ninth time, or they are about family vacations and Star Peace, or else they are about something frankly unbelievable like Luke being exiled. The New Republic is my least favorite era, and I find it the least interesting, though I think that if the sequel movies did a better job exploring the fallout of the Emperor's defeat in ROTJ, the movies could be successful. There have been a lot of revolutions in the news in recent years, so I think there is a lot of potential for a fairly moving and realistic examination of how hard it can be to establish a democracy after a totalitarian regime. The New Republic era suffers not because it doesn't have the potential to be exciting, but because those in charge of telling its story tend to bungle the opportunities they are presented with

I always played Luke when I was younger and then Anakin/Vader as a teen/adult. I actually created a Jedi named Kato Si that I have used for RPGS, playing, and etc.

Ah Soresu, that lightsaber form was made legendary by none other than Obi-Wan-Kenobi. I think you would have made a great Jedi Counselor then.

I hold a special place in my heart for the OT as well. I grew up watching EPIV-VI on VHS. I remember begging my father to watch them over and over. There is something about the Imperial Era. I suppose It's because It's Astro-WWII, with a nefarious regime based on the Nazis. You feel like the strong is truly against evil, rather than some strange alien race. I of course adore characters like Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, Liea Organa, Chewbacca, R2D2 and C-3PO. I frankly don't think the Prequel Trilogy was casted well. I was very dissapointed with Hyden Christien's preformance as Anakin. I had imagined that Anakin was War Hero of the Clone Wars, that was tender and kind, not boastful and proud. I though he would have weakeness for anger, that in conflicts he would unleash that anger and that combined with the desire to save Padme would make him fall. Lust for power still could have worked, but I can't tolerate Annie's whining and complaining. He sounds like four year old crying everytime he doesn't get the toy he wants.

The Old Republic period as you've so elloquently put it, was the most wonderious era. The fact the Jedi Order was at It's peak reminds me of the Medieval to Early Renaissance, when the Church was at the highth of It's power and most of the world was Christian. Likewise the Jedi Order held much sway over the Galaxy and many wanted to learn the Ways of Ashla or the Light Side. Unfortunately, the Empire brought an end to the Golden Age. It's ironic, because the Jedi fought many wars against the Sith (including engagements with thousands of Jedi fighting thousands of Sith), but a Imperial Clone Army under the command of the Dark Lord of the Sith was able to eradicate almost every Jedi. it reminds me of how the Church became blind to the rise of Communism, Humansism, and Transcendentalism.

I think the New Jedi Order is not as appealing because they seem to be so disconnected from the Force. In the Old Republic, the Jedi mastered their sense of Ashla and were capable of wielding It's power in ways that still astound readers. In the New Jedi Order It's a big deal if you can levitate stones, but in Old Jedi Order they could Disconnected Sith from the Force and use Battle Meditation to control fleets of Ships in Space! Kinda reminds of the Early Church versus the Renaissance Church. The Early Church moved in amazing mircales, and was able to do things in Christ's name with such power, but the Renaissance Church on the other hand was more about intellect and did very little in comparsion.

 

[SunshineRose]

I think a lot of boys end up playing Luke when they are little, and my brother enjoyed playing Vader (he had a Vader costume and lightsaber as well as a Luke one) when he wasn’t playing Luke. I guess it was the evil streak coming out

Yep, Obi-Wan was the Master of Soresu. I could only hope to be as wise a Jedi as Obi-Wan

The Empire does have a Nazi quality or a Cold War Russia feeling to it. The Empire is an evil we can relate to based on earth experiences, while the strange aliens stuff in the post-ROTJ world is not really something we can relate to based on our experiences, so it is harder for us to feel as connected to the drama and to feel as if there is as much at stake.

Luke, Han, Leia, Chewbacca, and the droids are so iconic and have a truly special place in my heart. The acting, overall, is superior in the original series than in the prequel trilogies, at least in my opinion. It’s hard for me to think of a Star Wars character in the original movies that really bungled his or her role.

In contrast, I think that Hayden did a pretty horrible job acting in the second and third movies. He has three expressions: wooden stare, angry killer eyes, and whiny pout. He and Portman did not create as much romantic tension and dynamic on screen as Ford and Fisher did. Anakin’s character also just wasn’t fleshed out well by the script at all. He should have been made more of a noble hero with a tragic flaw that led to his undoing, rather than a whiny, selfish creep. The original series makes us care about the Anakin Skywalker behind the Vader mask because we believe him to be a brave, self-sacrificing creature, and then the prequel trilogy comes along and damages that foundation, making us not care about this complaining, creepy psychopath. Anakin’s downfall also should have been explored in more depth. It always feels like a five-second turn to the dark side when he is in Palpatine’s office after Mace is killed. You’d think one of the most important moments in the saga would ring a little less false.

You make an interesting comparison to the early Church and the Jedi during the Old Republic. The Old Republic is such a great era because of the sway that the Jedi had over the galaxy. I see the Old Republic Jedi, much like the early Church, as being able to develop a lot of important spiritual insights but also able to work miracles and to influence society for the good. It was a terrible tragedy when the Jedi in the Old Republic were slain by the clone troopers under Sidious’ control. The blindness of the Old Republic near the end of their golden age is similar to how the Church can be damaged by threats like Communism, Humanism, and Transcendantilism that take away God or set humans up as their own gods

Like you say, I do feel like the New Republic Jedi are more disconnected from the Force, probably because their Grand Master Luke got comparatively little training in the ways of the Force before he was expected to pass along the little accumulated knowledge that he had to other potential Jedi like his sister and his sister’s children. It is kind of like trying to teach someone how to write the great American novel when you only have a vague idea what a story is. It’s a noble effort especially if all the other novels have been destroyed, but it may not end with the best literary creation. There is a lot less going on in terms of actually understanding and being able to manipulate the Force, because the centuries of wisdom that were accumulated during the Old Republic were largely lost, and so the New Republic Jedi are basically starting from square one.

 

[Sir Godfrey]

One of the motifs that irks me in the Expanded Universe and post EPIII is the bluring of Ashla and Bogan into one. That a character can sway between the Light Side and Dark Side within his life. It's as if every character who is Force-Senstive must follow the same path as Anakin. Don't get me wrong, I think the Trial of Temptation by the Dark Side is important, every Jedi must face the darkness inside and conquer it. However, having every powerful Jedi trainee become a Darth Cadeus or Darth Vader is excessive. I really didn't like Dark Empire, because even Luke Skywalker falls to the Dark Side. The whole point of Luke, was that he stopped the generational curse and broke the power of Bogan when he spared his father. I am getting weary of the Tragic Hero and in particular the Anti-Hero. We are losing a sense of Good and Evil in literature and films. It's time to have clearly defined heroes like King Arthur or Luke Skywalker and cearly defined villans like Sir Mordred or Darth Vader.

 

[SunshineRose]

One of the motifs that irks me in the Expanded Universe and post EPIII is the bluring of Ashla and Bogan into one. That a character can sway between the Light Side and Dark Side within his life. It's as if every character who is Force-Senstive must follow the same path as Anakin. Don't get me wrong, I think the Trial of Temptation by the Dark Side is important, every Jedi must face the darkness inside and conquer it. However, having every powerful Jedi trainee become a Darth Cadeus or Darth Vader is excessive. I really didn't like Dark Empire, because even Luke Skywalker falls to the Dark Side. The whole point of Luke, was that he stopped the generational curse and broke the power of Bogan when he spared his father. I am getting weary of the Tragic Hero and in particular the Anti-Hero. We are losing a sense of Good and Evil in literature and films. It's time to have clearly defined heroes like King Arthur or Luke Skywalker and cearly defined villans like Sir Mordred or Darth Vader.

Agreed. Part of what makes an Anakin or a Luke Skywalker so special is that they have the unique ability to impact the Force on a large scale with their lives and their choices. The choice and life of every other Force-Sensitive will not cause a comparable galactic shift in the balance between good and evil. If the choice of every Force user caused galactic upheaval, there would be no sense of order in the galaxy, and there wouldn't have needed to be a prophecy about a Chosen One, 'cause every Force user would basically be a Chosen One

Individual choices are important, but it is also good to remember that the consequences of individual choices are often small though significant. In SW universe, that fact is being forgotten a lot lately, resulting in galactic civil wars led Sith that cease to be interesting because they are so redundant.

Individual temptation is interesting to explore, but writers should remember that not everyone experiences the temptation of the Dark Side to the degree that Anakin did in ROTS or Luke did in ESB. If every Force user goes through the exact same thing, Anakin's and Luke's journeys are robbed of a lot of their power and their status as tragic or classic heroes are seriously undermined, at least in my point of view.

Good and evil are balanced differently in everyone. We are allowed to have good characters that don't experience a strong temptation to fall or have to atone for some dreadful crime. The line between good and evil doesn't always have to be blurred. Good and evil can often be separated, and it should be noticeable when they can't or when someone who was good falls or someone who was evil gets redeemed. The way it is noticeable is when their is a sharp distinction between right and wrong--good and evil--and the only characters aren't morally gray ones who fall and are redeemed at the drop of hats. Our culture is trying to create a world in which we can do whatever we want, and so our entertainment and literature has tried to do away with the ancient distinction between good and evil

 

[Sir Godfrey]

I'm very excited about the new book Star Wars: Kenobi. It's suppose to cover the beginning of his exile on Tantooine. I can only imagine how difficult it was for Ben to renouce his former self and become a hermit. He had to led the War Hero of the Clone Wars be erased for the sake Luke and Leia. I've often wondered if Obi during his travels ever encountered Vader again. A New Hope indicates not, that there are only two duels between former master and apprentice. Still I can imagine what a duel between Ben and Vader would be like in their prime. I really enjoyed a Graphic Novel called The Purge, where Vader now in his terrifying suite goes about the galaxy hunting down the remnant of the Jedi. He is obessed with finding Obi-Wan, to the point that Emperor forbids his search and tells him to cease hunting the Jedi, that they are not threat anymore.

 

[SunshineRose]

I'm very excited about the new book Star Wars: Kenobi. It's suppose to cover the beginning of his exile on Tantooine. I can only imagine how difficult it was for Ben to renouce his former self and become a hermit. He had to led the War Hero of the Clone Wars be erased for the sake Luke and Leia. I've often wondered if Obi during his travels ever encountered Vader again. A New Hope indicates not, that there are only two duels between former master and apprentice. Still I can imagine what a duel between Ben and Vader would be like in their prime. I really enjoyed a Graphic Novel called The Purge, where Vader now in his terrifying suite goes about the galaxy hunting down the remnant of the Jedi. He is obessed with finding Obi-Wan, to the point that Emperor forbids his search and tells him to cease hunting the Jedi, that they are not threat anymore.

I'm excited for the book, too I think that anything with the title Kenobi has the potential to be incredibly awesome. Even if it only lives up to a quarter of its potential, it will be an enjoyable read.

Obi-Wan's exile on Tatooine has always interested me, as well. It must have been hard for him to deal with the loss of his closest friend to the Dark Side, and the deaths of Padme and all the Jedi he had worked and lived with for so long. He lost his home and his family and the government that he had served all his life (risking his life a lot in the process) in one fell swoop. I can't imagine how devastating that would be.

He must have been horrified when he saw Vader emerge as the nightmare in a black suit (when he thought that Vader had died on Mustafar) and he must have been heart-broken seeing the rise of the Empire. Every news event must have felt like a reminder of the Republic and citizens and Jedi that he couldn't save.

All he would have was the faint hope of Luke and Leia, and Qui-Gon's lessons. He went from a Clone Wars hero to an exile just protecting a young boy on a backworld.

 

[Sir Godfrey]

I'm excited for the book, too I think that anything with the title Kenobi has the potential to be incredibly awesome. Even if it only lives up to a quarter of its potential, it will be an enjoyable read.

Obi-Wan's exile on Tatooine has always interested me, as well. It must have been hard for him to deal with the loss of his closest friend to the Dark Side, and the deaths of Padme and all the Jedi he had worked and lived with for so long. He lost his home and his family and the government that he had served all his life (risking his life a lot in the process) in one fell swoop. I can't imagine how devastating that would be.

He must have been horrified when he saw Vader emerge as the nightmare in a black suit (when he thought that Vader had died on Mustafar) and he must have been heart-broken seeing the rise of the Empire. Every news event must have felt like a reminder of the Republic and citizens and Jedi that he couldn't save.

All he would have was the faint hope of Luke and Leia, and Qui-Gon's lessons. He went from a Clone Wars hero to an exile just protecting a young boy on a backworld.

I think Tatooine is a planet based on the Wilderness that the Jews after the Exodus had to wander for forty years and where Christ was tempted and tested. It's a place that seems insignificant to the world powers, but the Wilderness is the place where profound changes occur in a person. It is there in the insolatation of a desolate desert that a Christian is forced to rely on God and a Jedi is forced to put their hope in the Force. Afterall, Luke Skywalker returned to Tatooine after ESB to train and create his new lightsaber. He intended never to return home, but he was drawn there for both the purpose of developing who he is as a Jedi and to help his friend Han. Even Anakin who didn't want to return to the backwater planet found himself there again and the Wilderness had a different effect on him. The Dark Side or the Devil ceased control of him and he commited genocide.

 

[SunshineRose]

Good insights.

 

[Sir Godfrey]

Good insights.

Thank You.

What do you think of the whole Starkiller Saga? The Force Unleashed is suppose to be canon according to what I've heard, but I must say It's far fetched that Vader had an apprentice more powerful than any Jedi or Sith who exists before ROTJ. It's intriguing, and I can picture Vader wanting to do a Coupe de etat on Palpatine, but still the whole Starkiller Story has a disbelief surrounding it.

 

[SunshineRose]

Thank You.

What do you think of the whole Starkiller Saga? The Force Unleashed is suppose to be canon according to what I've heard, but I must say It's far fetched that Vader had an apprentice more powerful than any Jedi or Sith who exists before ROTJ. It's intriguing, and I can picture Vader wanting to do a Coupe de etat on Palpatine, but still the whole Starkiller Story has a disbelief surrounding it.

I'm not really a fan of the Starkiller saga. It just seemed kind of far-fetched to me, even if the plot was exciting in terms of action. It was kind of on the level of interesting but not quite believable fanfiction to me.

ETA: I tend to have a flexible view about Star Wars canon. I feel like the official canon has changed so often that I just adopt what I like into my personal canon and let other fans do the same. The EU is so crazy at this point that it is the only way to remain sane in my humble opinion.